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The Shadow Internet: Please help us to get funding

The Shadow Internet: Please help us to get funding

From:
Johan Pouwelse
Date:
2014-03-21 @ 14:43
Hi All,
Re-decentralize takes a lot of effort and money.

We're aiming to get a share of $2.75 million of funds being handed out
by the Knight Foundation and spend it on the good cause.
However we need your help to get it.

Our entry: 
https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/the-shadow-internet-a-censorship-free-communication-infrastructure

Please create an account at this website, upvote and discuss our entry!
We really could the funds for a few extra pair of hands in the team.
This is not illegal astroturfing, they only fund initiatives with proven
deep community roots. Please re-tweet..
(https://twitter.com/TriblerTeam/status/445971016972787712)

For the past 16 years I have been working with my research team on building
privacy-enhancing technology, today in a capacity as an associate professor.
So far we had 1.4 million installs of our Tribler software.
Now we're got the TOR wire specs operational in Beta with
modifications for UDP support.
Plus backwards compatibility and anonymous streaming from existing
Bittorrent swarms.
Next step is expanding our Android port and enhance our NFC sync capability.
Tech docs: 
https://github.com/Tribler/tribler/wiki#tor-like-onion-routing-and-privacy-protection

Our promo text: The Shadow Internet - a censorship-free communication
infrastructure
The shadow Internet is an alternative communication infrastructure.
Under active development for several years, it's specifically crafted
to be resilient to sniffing, blocking, filtering and shutdown. A place
for free expression and [...]

Thank you for your help!   -johan.

Re: [redecentralize] The Shadow Internet: Please help us to get funding

From:
Ximin Luo
Date:
2014-03-21 @ 14:52
On 21/03/14 14:43, Johan Pouwelse wrote:
> Hi All,
> Re-decentralize takes a lot of effort and money.
> 
> We're aiming to get a share of $2.75 million of funds being handed out
> by the Knight Foundation and spend it on the good cause.
> However we need your help to get it.
> 
> Our entry: 
https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/the-shadow-internet-a-censorship-free-communication-infrastructure
> 
> Please create an account at this website, upvote and discuss our entry!
> We really could the funds for a few extra pair of hands in the team.
> This is not illegal astroturfing, they only fund initiatives with proven
> deep community roots. Please re-tweet..
> (https://twitter.com/TriblerTeam/status/445971016972787712)
> 
> For the past 16 years I have been working with my research team on building
> privacy-enhancing technology, today in a capacity as an associate professor.
> So far we had 1.4 million installs of our Tribler software.
> Now we're got the TOR wire specs operational in Beta with
> modifications for UDP support.
> Plus backwards compatibility and anonymous streaming from existing
> Bittorrent swarms.
> Next step is expanding our Android port and enhance our NFC sync capability.
> Tech docs: 
https://github.com/Tribler/tribler/wiki#tor-like-onion-routing-and-privacy-protection
> 
> Our promo text: The Shadow Internet - a censorship-free communication
> infrastructure
> The shadow Internet is an alternative communication infrastructure.
> Under active development for several years, it's specifically crafted
> to be resilient to sniffing, blocking, filtering and shutdown. A place
> for free expression and [...]
> 
> Thank you for your help!   -johan.
> 

I would suggest not to call it the "shadow" or "dark" internet. This is 
very much a meaningless label made up by anti-privacy media. It basically 
means "you need a tool other than a browser to access this information". 
So email is the "dark net". (We have tor2web portals in the same way that 
we have webmail clients.)

There is nothing "dark" or "shadowy" or "mysterious" about wanting to 
protect your own personal information from 3rd parties that have no right 
to read it.

Also what is the point of that graph on that last link - what are you 
trying to communicate to the user? And why are you using a line graph to 
plot a discrete variable? Under what circumstance would you want to use a 
1- or 2-hop circuit, and how are you communicating this choice to the user
in the UI?

X

-- 
GPG: 4096R/1318EFAC5FBBDBCE
git://github.com/infinity0/pubkeys.git

Re: [redecentralize] The Shadow Internet: Please help us to get funding

From:
Paul Frazee
Date:
2014-03-21 @ 14:56
Hey Johan,

Can you sell us/me on Tribler a bit? Looks like it's a bittorrent client
that you're putting behind TOR, plus an over-the-local-wifi feature. The
two things I wonder: what's the merit of bittorrent as a replacement
communication structure when applications don't communicate via
file-sharing, and would this perform well enough to make it useful now?

Also second Ximin's thoughts on the use of negative-sounding terms.

Be well,
Paul F


On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Johan Pouwelse <peer2peer@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
> Re-decentralize takes a lot of effort and money.
>
> We're aiming to get a share of $2.75 million of funds being handed out
> by the Knight Foundation and spend it on the good cause.
> However we need your help to get it.
>
> Our entry:
> 
https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/the-shadow-internet-a-censorship-free-communication-infrastructure
>
> Please create an account at this website, upvote and discuss our entry!
> We really could the funds for a few extra pair of hands in the team.
> This is not illegal astroturfing, they only fund initiatives with proven
> deep community roots. Please re-tweet..
> (https://twitter.com/TriblerTeam/status/445971016972787712)
>
> For the past 16 years I have been working with my research team on building
> privacy-enhancing technology, today in a capacity as an associate
> professor.
> So far we had 1.4 million installs of our Tribler software.
> Now we're got the TOR wire specs operational in Beta with
> modifications for UDP support.
> Plus backwards compatibility and anonymous streaming from existing
> Bittorrent swarms.
> Next step is expanding our Android port and enhance our NFC sync
> capability.
> Tech docs:
> 
https://github.com/Tribler/tribler/wiki#tor-like-onion-routing-and-privacy-protection
>
> Our promo text: The Shadow Internet - a censorship-free communication
> infrastructure
> The shadow Internet is an alternative communication infrastructure.
> Under active development for several years, it's specifically crafted
> to be resilient to sniffing, blocking, filtering and shutdown. A place
> for free expression and [...]
>
> Thank you for your help!   -johan.
>

Re: [redecentralize] The Shadow Internet: Please help us to get funding

From:
Johan Pouwelse
Date:
2014-03-21 @ 17:36
Hi All,
Indeed, Shadow Internet has a negative connotation to some.

It's not easy to explain Tribler quickly. Basically we have a fully
decentralised Youtube,
plus are doing anonymous streaming tests now.

Tribler is not merely a streaming Bittorrent client, we build various things on
top of our P2P distributed database, such a wiki-style editing of metadata.
We do not use the TOR network, we enhanced their protocol to make
it compatible with our NAT puncturing techniques.
Overview paper: http://sigmm.org/records/records1201/featured03.html

About the merit of Bittorrent..
Our framework offers generic SOCKS5 interface, so other apps can also use it.

> Also what is the point of that graph on that last link - what are you 
trying to communicate to the user? And why are you using a line graph to 
plot a discrete variable? Under what circumstance would you want to use a 
1- or 2-hop circuit, and how are you communicating this choice to the user
in the UI?

If you are referring to the hops versus download speed graph..
This is just the result of an initial measurement with people on
our forum. This was our first indication that our method could yield
6x or 8x the download speeds of Tor. We now have run test with 8-hops.
It all depends on people also donating bandwidth when they use
anonymous streaming.
Several phd students worked on improving our indirect reciprocity mechanism
over the past 7 years. See initial work with Harvard and recent code:
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/08/creating-a-computer-currency/
https://github.com/Tribler/tribler/wiki/BarterCast3

Greetings, johan.

On 21 March 2014 15:56, Paul Frazee <pfrazee@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Johan,
>
> Can you sell us/me on Tribler a bit? Looks like it's a bittorrent client
> that you're putting behind TOR, plus an over-the-local-wifi feature. The two
> things I wonder: what's the merit of bittorrent as a replacement
> communication structure when applications don't communicate via
> file-sharing, and would this perform well enough to make it useful now?
>
> Also second Ximin's thoughts on the use of negative-sounding terms.
>
> Be well,
> Paul F
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Johan Pouwelse <peer2peer@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>> Re-decentralize takes a lot of effort and money.
>>
>> We're aiming to get a share of $2.75 million of funds being handed out
>> by the Knight Foundation and spend it on the good cause.
>> However we need your help to get it.
>>
>> Our entry:
>> 
https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/the-shadow-internet-a-censorship-free-communication-infrastructure
>>
>> Please create an account at this website, upvote and discuss our entry!
>> We really could the funds for a few extra pair of hands in the team.
>> This is not illegal astroturfing, they only fund initiatives with proven
>> deep community roots. Please re-tweet..
>> (https://twitter.com/TriblerTeam/status/445971016972787712)
>>
>> For the past 16 years I have been working with my research team on
>> building
>> privacy-enhancing technology, today in a capacity as an associate
>> professor.
>> So far we had 1.4 million installs of our Tribler software.
>> Now we're got the TOR wire specs operational in Beta with
>> modifications for UDP support.
>> Plus backwards compatibility and anonymous streaming from existing
>> Bittorrent swarms.
>> Next step is expanding our Android port and enhance our NFC sync
>> capability.
>> Tech docs:
>> 
https://github.com/Tribler/tribler/wiki#tor-like-onion-routing-and-privacy-protection
>>
>> Our promo text: The Shadow Internet - a censorship-free communication
>> infrastructure
>> The shadow Internet is an alternative communication infrastructure.
>> Under active development for several years, it's specifically crafted
>> to be resilient to sniffing, blocking, filtering and shutdown. A place
>> for free expression and [...]
>>
>> Thank you for your help!   -johan.
>
>

Re: [redecentralize] The Shadow Internet: Please help us to get funding

From:
Ximin Luo
Date:
2014-03-21 @ 22:18
On 21/03/14 17:36, Johan Pouwelse wrote:
> Hi All,
> Indeed, Shadow Internet has a negative connotation to some.
> 

But are you going to do something about it? I really think it is a bad 
idea. The Tor Project specifically opposes using such terms, even though 
less technical parts of the media like to use it to sound cool, or to get 
attention but for the wrong reasons.

> It's not easy to explain Tribler quickly. Basically we have a fully
> decentralised Youtube,
> plus are doing anonymous streaming tests now.
> 
> Tribler is not merely a streaming Bittorrent client, we build various things on
> top of our P2P distributed database, such a wiki-style editing of metadata.
> We do not use the TOR network, we enhanced their protocol to make
> it compatible with our NAT puncturing techniques.
> Overview paper: http://sigmm.org/records/records1201/featured03.html
> 

This seems very nice! Tor has wanted to support UDP for some time. Is your
technology something that can be shared to other projects as well? How 
does it compare to i2p (which is very similar to Tor but uses (a form of) 
UDP)?

How are you doing NAT traversal? There is a common internet standard for 
this called ICE, which is what WebRTC uses, and is what I would recommend 
everyone else to use. Did you build your own system? If so, why, and how 
does it compare to ICE?

> About the merit of Bittorrent..
> Our framework offers generic SOCKS5 interface, so other apps can also use it.
> 
>> Also what is the point of that graph on that last link - what are you 
trying to communicate to the user? And why are you using a line graph to 
plot a discrete variable? Under what circumstance would you want to use a 
1- or 2-hop circuit, and how are you communicating this choice to the user
in the UI?
> 
> If you are referring to the hops versus download speed graph..
> This is just the result of an initial measurement with people on
> our forum. This was our first indication that our method could yield
> 6x or 8x the download speeds of Tor. We now have run test with 8-hops.
> It all depends on people also donating bandwidth when they use
> anonymous streaming.

Tor is "slow", but not in the bandwidth department.

There are two types of "speed" - latency ("length of the pipe") vs 
bandwidth ("width of the pipe"). Tor increases the length of the pipe but 
does not decrease the width of the pipe (beyond the link where this is 
narrowest). Latency is not something that can be fixed, but these days 
bandwidth is pretty good, so you might want to re-do your graph - I just 
got 50Mbps running speedtest.net's tests through Tor (3 hops), which is 
far greater than the ~350KBps (~3Mbps) for 3 hops in your graph. Perhaps 
some context on the graph would help, too - e.g. where you ran this from.

The point I made about 1- or 2- hops, is that the anonymity properties are
much much lower than at 3 hops. So if you don't care about anonymity, why 
not just do 0 hops? This is also a UX issue, because people have different
anonymity requirements.

> Several phd students worked on improving our indirect reciprocity mechanism
> over the past 7 years. See initial work with Harvard and recent code:
> http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/08/creating-a-computer-currency/
> https://github.com/Tribler/tribler/wiki/BarterCast3
> 

Are these sub-systems re-useable for other projects?

Reading through the original 2006 paper I see that Tribler is a social 
file-sharing system. How does it compare to OneSwarm, also a social 
file-sharing system based more directly on BitTorrent?

X

> Greetings, johan.
> 
> On 21 March 2014 15:56, Paul Frazee <pfrazee@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey Johan,
>>
>> Can you sell us/me on Tribler a bit? Looks like it's a bittorrent client
>> that you're putting behind TOR, plus an over-the-local-wifi feature. The two
>> things I wonder: what's the merit of bittorrent as a replacement
>> communication structure when applications don't communicate via
>> file-sharing, and would this perform well enough to make it useful now?
>>
>> Also second Ximin's thoughts on the use of negative-sounding terms.
>>
>> Be well,
>> Paul F
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Johan Pouwelse <peer2peer@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>> Re-decentralize takes a lot of effort and money.
>>>
>>> We're aiming to get a share of $2.75 million of funds being handed out
>>> by the Knight Foundation and spend it on the good cause.
>>> However we need your help to get it.
>>>
>>> Our entry:
>>> 
https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/the-shadow-internet-a-censorship-free-communication-infrastructure
>>>
>>> Please create an account at this website, upvote and discuss our entry!
>>> We really could the funds for a few extra pair of hands in the team.
>>> This is not illegal astroturfing, they only fund initiatives with proven
>>> deep community roots. Please re-tweet..
>>> (https://twitter.com/TriblerTeam/status/445971016972787712)
>>>
>>> For the past 16 years I have been working with my research team on
>>> building
>>> privacy-enhancing technology, today in a capacity as an associate
>>> professor.
>>> So far we had 1.4 million installs of our Tribler software.
>>> Now we're got the TOR wire specs operational in Beta with
>>> modifications for UDP support.
>>> Plus backwards compatibility and anonymous streaming from existing
>>> Bittorrent swarms.
>>> Next step is expanding our Android port and enhance our NFC sync
>>> capability.
>>> Tech docs:
>>> 
https://github.com/Tribler/tribler/wiki#tor-like-onion-routing-and-privacy-protection
>>>
>>> Our promo text: The Shadow Internet - a censorship-free communication
>>> infrastructure
>>> The shadow Internet is an alternative communication infrastructure.
>>> Under active development for several years, it's specifically crafted
>>> to be resilient to sniffing, blocking, filtering and shutdown. A place
>>> for free expression and [...]
>>>
>>> Thank you for your help!   -johan.
>>
>>


-- 
GPG: 4096R/1318EFAC5FBBDBCE
git://github.com/infinity0/pubkeys.git

Re: [redecentralize] The Shadow Internet: Please help us to get funding

From:
Paul Frazee
Date:
2014-03-21 @ 18:41
Ok, I'm following you. How might this differ from Gnunet and Freenet?

Paul F


On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 12:36 PM, Johan Pouwelse <peer2peer@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi All,
> Indeed, Shadow Internet has a negative connotation to some.
>
> It's not easy to explain Tribler quickly. Basically we have a fully
> decentralised Youtube,
> plus are doing anonymous streaming tests now.
>
> Tribler is not merely a streaming Bittorrent client, we build various
> things on
> top of our P2P distributed database, such a wiki-style editing of metadata.
> We do not use the TOR network, we enhanced their protocol to make
> it compatible with our NAT puncturing techniques.
> Overview paper: http://sigmm.org/records/records1201/featured03.html
>
> About the merit of Bittorrent..
> Our framework offers generic SOCKS5 interface, so other apps can also use
> it.
>
> > Also what is the point of that graph on that last link - what are you
> trying to communicate to the user? And why are you using a line graph to
> plot a discrete variable? Under what circumstance would you want to use a
> 1- or 2-hop circuit, and how are you communicating this choice to the user
> in the UI?
>
> If you are referring to the hops versus download speed graph..
> This is just the result of an initial measurement with people on
> our forum. This was our first indication that our method could yield
> 6x or 8x the download speeds of Tor. We now have run test with 8-hops.
> It all depends on people also donating bandwidth when they use
> anonymous streaming.
> Several phd students worked on improving our indirect reciprocity mechanism
> over the past 7 years. See initial work with Harvard and recent code:
> http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/08/creating-a-computer-currency/
> https://github.com/Tribler/tribler/wiki/BarterCast3
>
> Greetings, johan.
>
> On 21 March 2014 15:56, Paul Frazee <pfrazee@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hey Johan,
> >
> > Can you sell us/me on Tribler a bit? Looks like it's a bittorrent client
> > that you're putting behind TOR, plus an over-the-local-wifi feature. The
> two
> > things I wonder: what's the merit of bittorrent as a replacement
> > communication structure when applications don't communicate via
> > file-sharing, and would this perform well enough to make it useful now?
> >
> > Also second Ximin's thoughts on the use of negative-sounding terms.
> >
> > Be well,
> > Paul F
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Johan Pouwelse <peer2peer@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >> Re-decentralize takes a lot of effort and money.
> >>
> >> We're aiming to get a share of $2.75 million of funds being handed out
> >> by the Knight Foundation and spend it on the good cause.
> >> However we need your help to get it.
> >>
> >> Our entry:
> >>
> 
https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/the-shadow-internet-a-censorship-free-communication-infrastructure
> >>
> >> Please create an account at this website, upvote and discuss our entry!
> >> We really could the funds for a few extra pair of hands in the team.
> >> This is not illegal astroturfing, they only fund initiatives with proven
> >> deep community roots. Please re-tweet..
> >> (https://twitter.com/TriblerTeam/status/445971016972787712)
> >>
> >> For the past 16 years I have been working with my research team on
> >> building
> >> privacy-enhancing technology, today in a capacity as an associate
> >> professor.
> >> So far we had 1.4 million installs of our Tribler software.
> >> Now we're got the TOR wire specs operational in Beta with
> >> modifications for UDP support.
> >> Plus backwards compatibility and anonymous streaming from existing
> >> Bittorrent swarms.
> >> Next step is expanding our Android port and enhance our NFC sync
> >> capability.
> >> Tech docs:
> >>
> 
https://github.com/Tribler/tribler/wiki#tor-like-onion-routing-and-privacy-protection
> >>
> >> Our promo text: The Shadow Internet - a censorship-free communication
> >> infrastructure
> >> The shadow Internet is an alternative communication infrastructure.
> >> Under active development for several years, it's specifically crafted
> >> to be resilient to sniffing, blocking, filtering and shutdown. A place
> >> for free expression and [...]
> >>
> >> Thank you for your help!   -johan.
> >
> >
>