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Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Craig Sharkie
Date:
2013-07-18 @ 22:59
*Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*



With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our second
SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of
Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad reach of *
Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.



We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related, and
you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
event and have your say!


On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
just as much as you!

RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au

See you there!

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Lachlan Hardy
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 01:41
I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to point
out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps and the
actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.

#justsayin


I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com>wrote:

>
> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*
>
>
>
> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our second
> SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of
> Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad reach of
>  *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.
>
>
>
> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related, and
> you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
> event and have your say!
>
>
> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
> just as much as you!
>
> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au
>
> See you there!
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Jared Wyles
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 01:42
As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap




On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <lachlan@lachstock.com.au>wrote:

> I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to point
> out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps and the
> actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
>
> #justsayin
>
>
> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*
>>
>>
>>
>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our second
>> SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of
>> Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad reach
>> of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.
>>
>>
>>
>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related,
>> and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
>> event and have your say!
>>
>>
>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
>> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
>> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
>> just as much as you!
>>
>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au
>>
>> See you there!
>>
>
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Cameron Barrie
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 01:51
For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*


On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:

> As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy 
<lachlan@lachstock.com.au> wrote:
> I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to 
point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps 
and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on 
tablets.
>  
> #justsayin
>  
>  
> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!
>  
> With the generous help of BlackBerry, we're looking to open our second 
SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of 
Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near 
Native experience of the BlackBerry and Firefox OS, the broad reach of 
Android, and the changing Apple iOS.
>  
> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related, 
and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our 
launch event and have your say!
>  
> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry 
Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry 
Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love 
JavaScript just as much as you!
> 
> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au
> 
> See you there!
> 
> 

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Jared Wyles
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 01:53
You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will catch
you.



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <camwritescode@gmail.com>wrote:

> For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*
>
>
> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <lachlan@lachstock.com.au>wrote:
>
>> I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to point
>> out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps and the
>> actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
>>
>> #justsayin
>>
>>
>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*
>>>
>>>
>>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our
>>> second SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world
>>> of Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
>>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad reach
>>> of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.
>>>
>>>
>>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related,
>>> and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
>>> event and have your say!
>>>
>>>
>>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
>>> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
>>> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
>>> just as much as you!
>>>
>>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au
>>>
>>> See you there!
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Andrew Dodson
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 01:55
As a regular web developer who doesn't want to split a third of his
subscriptions sales with an Shit Store, use Application Cache and optimize
the hell out of your web app.

Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
http://adodson.com


On 19 July 2013 11:53, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:

> You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
> catch you.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <camwritescode@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*
>>
>>
>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <lachlan@lachstock.com.au
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
>>> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
>>> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
>>>
>>> #justsayin
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our
>>>> second SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world
>>>> of Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
>>>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad
>>>> reach of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related,
>>>> and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
>>>> event and have your say!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
>>>> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
>>>> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
>>>> just as much as you!
>>>>
>>>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au
>>>>
>>>> See you there!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Cameron Barrie
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 01:59
Sounds like you've got your first speaker there Sharkie!

On 19/07/2013, at 11:55 AM, Andrew Dodson <andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com> wrote:

> As a regular web developer who doesn't want to split a third of his 
subscriptions sales with an Shit Store, use Application Cache and optimize
the hell out of your web app.
> 
> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 | 
http://adodson.com
> 
> 
> On 19 July 2013 11:53, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:
> You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will catch you.
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie 
<camwritescode@gmail.com> wrote:
> For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*
> 
> 
> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy 
<lachlan@lachstock.com.au> wrote:
>> I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to 
point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps 
and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on 
tablets.
>>  
>> #justsayin
>>  
>>  
>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!
>>  
>> With the generous help of BlackBerry, we're looking to open our second 
SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of 
Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near 
Native experience of the BlackBerry and Firefox OS, the broad reach of 
Android, and the changing Apple iOS.
>>  
>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related, 
and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our 
launch event and have your say!
>>  
>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry 
Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry 
Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love 
JavaScript just as much as you!
>> 
>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au
>> 
>> See you there!
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Nathanael Mowbray
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 01:57
Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:

> You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
> catch you.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <camwritescode@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*
>>
>>
>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <lachlan@lachstock.com.au
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
>>> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
>>> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
>>>
>>> #justsayin
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our
>>>> second SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world
>>>> of Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
>>>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad
>>>> reach of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related,
>>>> and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
>>>> event and have your say!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
>>>> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
>>>> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
>>>> just as much as you!
>>>>
>>>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au
>>>>
>>>> See you there!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Andrew Dodson
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 01:59
Yeah its called IE

Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
http://adodson.com


On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray
<nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com>wrote:

> Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
>> catch you.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <camwritescode@gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <
>>> lachlan@lachstock.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
>>>> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
>>>> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
>>>>
>>>> #justsayin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our
>>>>> second SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world
>>>>> of Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
>>>>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad
>>>>> reach of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related,
>>>>> and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
>>>>> event and have your say!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
>>>>> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
>>>>> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
>>>>> just as much as you!
>>>>>
>>>>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au
>>>>>
>>>>> See you there!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Michael Ridland
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 02:47
IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet to
publish.

....

For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the mobile
version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to share
some experiences we've had with going mobile.

Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just html5
vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded in a
native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's
actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.

Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we spent
the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft spot
for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone, jquery
and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The primary
problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5 app just
didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted. Second
issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build once and
optimize everywhere.

We ended up playing around with native applications, and found everything
just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift in
developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. From
that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's provides
a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich business
application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some hard
work.

That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user type
website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might go
with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many
users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in
addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.

Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a
users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40
hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.

TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If
your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your
critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile
friendly website is good to have.

FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native
include us, Facebook and Xero.

Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to Facebooks
claim please understand its a bit misleading because the comparison is done
in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance would no have been
half as good.



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson
<andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com>wrote:

> Yeah its called IE
>
> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
> http://adodson.com
>
>
> On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray <nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
>>> catch you.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <
>>> camwritescode@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <
>>>> lachlan@lachstock.com.au> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
>>>>> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
>>>>> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
>>>>>
>>>>> #justsayin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <
>>>>> craig.sharkie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our
>>>>>> second SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world
>>>>>> of Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
>>>>>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad
>>>>>> reach of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform
>>>>>> related, and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to
>>>>>> our launch event and have your say!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
>>>>>> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
>>>>>> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
>>>>>> just as much as you!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See you there!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Julio Cesar Ody
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 02:54
could not decode message

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Jared Wyles
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 02:56
Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.
He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt at
a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles. Reduce
your damn footprint and requests.
The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was
rather, well, unnecessary.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com>wrote:

> Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.
>
>
> It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS
> *per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:
>
>
> * measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way
> nothing *ever* spikes.
>
> * delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.
>
> * write really great and savvy markup.
>
> * write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.
>
>
> Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with
> almost no downsides.
>
>
> The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the code.
>
>
> On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland (rid00z@gmail.com) wrote:
>
>
> IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet to
> publish.
>
> ....
>
> For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the
> mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
> share some experiences we've had with going mobile.
>
> Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just html5
> vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded in a
> native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's
> actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.
>
> Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we spent
> the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft spot
> for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone, jquery
> and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The primary
> problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5 app just
> didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted. Second
> issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build once and
> optimize everywhere.
>
> We ended up playing around with native applications, and found everything
> just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift in
> developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. From
> that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's provides
> a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich business
> application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some hard
> work.
>
> That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user type
> website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might go
> with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many
> users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in
> addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.
>
> Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a
> users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40
> hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
> was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.
>
> TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If
> your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your
> critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile
> friendly website is good to have.
>
> FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native
> include us, Facebook and Xero.
>
> Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to Facebooks
> claim please understand its a bit misleading because the comparison is done
> in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance would no have been
> half as good.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson <andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Yeah its called IE
>>
>> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
>> http://adodson.com
>>
>>
>> On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray <
>> nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
>>>> catch you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <
>>>> camwritescode@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <
>>>>> lachlan@lachstock.com.au> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
>>>>>> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
>>>>>> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #justsayin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <
>>>>>> craig.sharkie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our
>>>>>>> second SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast 
moving world
>>>>>>> of Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about
the near
>>>>>>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad
>>>>>>> reach of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform
>>>>>>> related, and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to
>>>>>>> our launch event and have your say!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
>>>>>>> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
>>>>>>> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love 
JavaScript
>>>>>>> just as much as you!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> See you there!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Aaron Powell
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 03:26
Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile, 
Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and 
underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might 
perform as such?

Aaron Powell
IE MVP | IE userAgent

http://www.aaron-powell.com<http://www.aaron-powell.com/> | 
http://twitter.com/slace | Skype: aaron.l.powell | 
Github<http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>

From: sydjs@librelist.com [mailto:sydjs@librelist.com] On Behalf Of Jared Wyles
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
To: sydjs@librelist.com
Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.
He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt 
at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles. 
Reduce your damn footprint and requests.
The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was 
rather, well, unnecessary.

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody 
<julioody@gmail.com<mailto:julioody@gmail.com>> wrote:

Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.



It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS 
*per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:



* measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way 
nothing *ever* spikes.

* delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.

* write really great and savvy markup.

* write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.



Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with 
almost no downsides.



The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the code.



On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland 
(rid00z@gmail.com<mailto:rid00z@gmail.com>) wrote:

IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet to publish.

....

For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the 
mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
share some experiences we've had with going mobile.

Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just html5
vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded in a
native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's 
actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.

Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we spent
the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft spot 
for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone, jquery 
and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The primary 
problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5 app just
didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted. Second 
issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build once and
optimize everywhere.

We ended up playing around with native applications, and found everything 
just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift in 
developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. From
that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's provides
a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich business 
application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some hard 
work.

That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user type
website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might go 
with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many 
users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in 
addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.

Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a 
users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40 
hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.

TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If 
your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your 
critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile 
friendly website is good to have.

FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native 
include us, Facebook and Xero.

Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to Facebooks 
claim please understand its a bit misleading because the comparison is 
done in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance would no have 
been half as good.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson 
<andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com<mailto:andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com>> wrote:
Yeah its called IE

Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 | http://adodson.com

On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray 
<nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com<mailto:nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com>>
wrote:
Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:
You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will catch you.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie 
<camwritescode@gmail.com<mailto:camwritescode@gmail.com>> wrote:
For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*


On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:


As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy 
<lachlan@lachstock.com.au<mailto:lachlan@lachstock.com.au>> wrote:
I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to point 
out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps and 
the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.

#justsayin


I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie 
<craig.sharkie@gmail.com<mailto:craig.sharkie@gmail.com>> wrote:

Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!


With the generous help of BlackBerry, we're looking to open our second 
SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of 
Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near 
Native experience of the BlackBerry and Firefox OS, the broad reach of 
Android, and the changing Apple iOS.


We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related, and
you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch 
event and have your say!


On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry 
Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry 
Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love 
JavaScript just as much as you!

RSVP now: 
http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au<http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au/>

See you there!







Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Ben Taylor
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 03:29
I think there's a jQuery plugin you can add for that.


On Friday, 19 July 2013 at 1:26 PM, Aaron Powell wrote:

> Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile, 
Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and 
underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might 
perform as such?
>  
> Aaron Powell
> IE MVP | IE userAgent
> 
> http://www.aaron-powell.com (http://www.aaron-powell.com/) | 
http://twitter.com/slace | Skype: aaron.l.powell | Github 
(http://github.com/aaronpowell/) | BitBucket (http://hg.apwll.me/) 
>  
> From: sydjs@librelist.com [mailto:sydjs@librelist.com] On Behalf Of Jared Wyles
> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
> To: sydjs@librelist.com (mailto:sydjs@librelist.com)
> Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow! 
>  
> Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.
> He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt
at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles. 
Reduce your damn footprint and requests. 
> 
> The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was 
rather, well, unnecessary. 
> 
> 
>  
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com 
(mailto:julioody@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > 
> > Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about 
CSS *per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > * measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way
nothing *ever* spikes.
> > 
> > * delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.
> > 
> > * write really great and savvy markup.
> > 
> > 
> > * write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with 
almost no downsides.
> > 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > 
> > The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the code.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland (rid00z@gmail.com 
(mailto:rid00z@gmail.com)) wrote:
> > >  
> > > 
> > > IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've 
yet to publish. 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > ....
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the
mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
share some experiences we've had with going mobile.
> > > 
> > > Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just
html5 vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's 
embedded in a native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In 
iOS there's actually a massive performance difference when using embedded 
html5.
> > > 
> > > Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we
spent the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft 
spot for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone, 
jquery and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The 
primary problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5 
app just didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we 
wanted. Second issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is
build once and optimize everywhere.
> > > 
> > > We ended up playing around with native applications, and found 
everything just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift 
in developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. 
From that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's 
provides a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich 
business application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with 
some hard work.
> > > 
> > > That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end 
user type website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you 
might go with a native app for user experience you must also consider that
many users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly 
website(in addition to native) is also important for user experience in 
this case.
> > > 
> > > Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part 
of a users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 
40 hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our 
choice was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.
> > > 
> > > TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg 
phonegap. If your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an 
app. If your critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a 
mobile friendly website is good to have.
> > > 
> > > FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native
include us, Facebook and Xero.
> > > 
> > > Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to 
Facebooks claim please understand its a bit misleading because the 
comparison is done in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance 
would no have been half as good. 
> > >  
> > > 
> > >  
> > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson 
<andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com (mailto:andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > > > Yeah its called IE
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 | 
http://adodson.com 
> > > >  
> > > > 
> > > > On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray 
<nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com 
(mailto:nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > > > > Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.
> > > > > 
> > > > >  
> > > > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com (mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > > > > > You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where
i will catch you.
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie 
<camwritescode@gmail.com (mailto:camwritescode@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > > > > > > For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com (mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap  
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy 
<lachlan@lachstock.com.au (mailto:lachlan@lachstock.com.au)> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and 
JavaScript lover to point out the "near native" experience of Windows 
Phone 8 JavaScript apps and the actually native experience of Windows 8 
JavaScript apps on tablets.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > #justsayin
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie 
<craig.sharkie@gmail.com (mailto:craig.sharkie@gmail.com)> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > With the generous help of BlackBerry, we're looking to
open our second SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast 
moving world of Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn 
about the near Native experience of the BlackBerry and Firefox OS, the 
broad reach of Android, and the changing Apple iOS.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything 
platform related, and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come 
along to our launch event and have your say!
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the 
local Blackberry Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from
BlackBerry Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who 
love JavaScript just as much as you!
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au 
(http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au/)
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > See you there!
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > >  
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >  
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Nathanael Mowbray
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 03:47
innerHTML on iOS is hopelessly slow.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Ben Taylor <me@taybenlor.com> wrote:

> I think there's a jQuery plugin you can add for that.
>
> On Friday, 19 July 2013 at 1:26 PM, Aaron Powell wrote:
>
>  Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile,
> Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and
> underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might
> perform as such?****
>
> ** **
>
> Aaron Powell
> IE MVP | IE userAgent
>
> http://www.aaron-powell.com | http://twitter.com/slace | Skype:
> aaron.l.powell | Github <http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | 
BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* sydjs@librelist.com [mailto:sydjs@librelist.com<sydjs@librelist.com>]
> *On Behalf Of *Jared Wyles
> *Sent:* Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
> *To:* sydjs@librelist.com
> *Subject:* Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!****
>
> ** **
>
> Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.****
>
> He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt
> at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles.
> Reduce your damn footprint and requests. ****
>
> The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was
> rather, well, unnecessary. ****
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com>
> wrote:****
>
>  Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.****
>
> ** **
>
> It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS
> *per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:****
>
> ** **
>
> * measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way
> nothing *ever* spikes.****
>
> * delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.****
>
> * write really great and savvy markup.****
>
> * write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.****
>
> ** **
>
> Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with
> almost no downsides.****
>
> ** **
>
> The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the code.
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland (rid00z@gmail.com) wrote:*
> ***
>
>  ** **
>
> IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet to
> publish. ****
>
> ** **
>
> ....****
>
> ** **
>
> For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the
> mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
> share some experiences we've had with going mobile.
>
> Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just html5
> vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded in a
> native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's
> actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.
>
> Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we spent
> the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft spot
> for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone, jquery
> and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The primary
> problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5 app just
> didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted. Second
> issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build once and
> optimize everywhere.
>
> We ended up playing around with native applications, and found everything
> just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift in
> developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. From
> that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's provides
> a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich business
> application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some hard
> work.
>
> That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user type
> website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might go
> with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many
> users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in
> addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.
>
> Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a
> users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40
> hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
> was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.
>
> TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If
> your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your
> critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile
> friendly website is good to have.
>
> FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native
> include us, Facebook and Xero.
>
> Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to Facebooks
> claim please understand its a bit misleading because the comparison is done
> in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance would no have been
> half as good.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson <andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com>
> wrote:****
>
>  Yeah its called IE****
>
>
> ****
>
> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
> http://adodson.com****
>
> ** **
>
> On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray <nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com>
> wrote:****
>
>  Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.****
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>
> wrote:****
>
>  You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
> catch you.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <camwritescode@gmail.com>
> wrote:****
>
>  For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:****
>
>
>
> ****
>
>  As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <lachlan@lachstock.com.au>
> wrote:****
>
>  I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
> ****
>
>  ****
>
> #justsayin****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)****
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com>
> wrote:****
>
>  ** **
>
> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*****
>
>  ****
>
> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our second
> SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of
> Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad reach
> of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.****
>
>  ****
>
> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related, and
> you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
> event and have your say!****
>
>  ****
>
> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
> just as much as you!****
>
> ** **
>
> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au****
>
> ** **
>
> See you there!****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
>   ** **
>
>
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Guillaume Ang
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 04:02
Speaking of which, has any of you guys good examples of html5 embedded apps
that rock ?
I would be eager to check those.
On Jul 19, 2013 1:48 PM, "Nathanael Mowbray" <
nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> innerHTML on iOS is hopelessly slow.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Ben Taylor <me@taybenlor.com> wrote:
>
>> I think there's a jQuery plugin you can add for that.
>>
>> On Friday, 19 July 2013 at 1:26 PM, Aaron Powell wrote:
>>
>>  Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile,
>> Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and
>> underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might
>> perform as such?****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Aaron Powell
>> IE MVP | IE userAgent
>>
>> http://www.aaron-powell.com | http://twitter.com/slace | Skype:
>> aaron.l.powell | Github <http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | 
BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>
>> ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* sydjs@librelist.com [mailto:sydjs@librelist.com<sydjs@librelist.com>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Jared Wyles
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
>> *To:* sydjs@librelist.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.****
>>
>> He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt
>> at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles.
>> Reduce your damn footprint and requests. ****
>>
>> The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was
>> rather, well, unnecessary. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>  Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS
>> *per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> * measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way
>> nothing *ever* spikes.****
>>
>> * delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.****
>>
>> * write really great and savvy markup.****
>>
>> * write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with
>> almost no downsides.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the
>> code.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland (rid00z@gmail.com) wrote:
>> ****
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>> IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet to
>> publish. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ....****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the
>> mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
>> share some experiences we've had with going mobile.
>>
>> Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just
>> html5 vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded
>> in a native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's
>> actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.
>>
>> Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we
>> spent the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft
>> spot for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone,
>> jquery and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The
>> primary problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5
>> app just didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted.
>> Second issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build
>> once and optimize everywhere.
>>
>> We ended up playing around with native applications, and found everything
>> just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift in
>> developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. From
>> that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's provides
>> a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich business
>> application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some hard
>> work.
>>
>> That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user
>> type website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might
>> go with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many
>> users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in
>> addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.
>>
>> Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a
>> users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40
>> hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
>> was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.
>>
>> TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If
>> your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your
>> critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile
>> friendly website is good to have.
>>
>> FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native
>> include us, Facebook and Xero.
>>
>> Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to Facebooks
>> claim please understand its a bit misleading because the comparison is done
>> in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance would no have been
>> half as good.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson <
>> andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>
>>  Yeah its called IE****
>>
>>
>> ****
>>
>> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
>> http://adodson.com****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray <
>> nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>
>>  Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.***
>> *
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>  You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
>> catch you.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <camwritescode@gmail.com>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>  For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:***
>> *
>>
>>
>>
>> ****
>>
>>  As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <lachlan@lachstock.com.au>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>  I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
>> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
>> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
>> ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> #justsayin****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our second
>> SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of
>> Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad reach
>> of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related,
>> and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
>> event and have your say!****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
>> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
>> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
>> just as much as you!****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> See you there!****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>   ** **
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
John Bristowe
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 05:46
I've noticed lag/jankyness in native apps too. Take Facebook, for example.

- John

On 19/07/2013, at 15:00, "Michael Ridland" 
<rid00z@gmail.com<mailto:rid00z@gmail.com>> wrote:


I had a look at untappd. It worked well for a phonegap app but you can 
still notice the lag in navigating to new screens or using the back 
button. That's why we had to dump phonegap for native.



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:04 PM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:
https://untappd.com/ is a good example using phonegap.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Guillaume Ang 
<guillaume.ang@gmail.com<mailto:guillaume.ang@gmail.com>> wrote:

Speaking of which, has any of you guys good examples of html5 embedded 
apps that rock ?
I would be eager to check those.

On Jul 19, 2013 1:48 PM, "Nathanael Mowbray" 
<nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com<mailto:nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com>>
wrote:

innerHTML on iOS is hopelessly slow.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Ben Taylor 
<me@taybenlor.com<mailto:me@taybenlor.com>> wrote:
I think there's a jQuery plugin you can add for that.

On Friday, 19 July 2013 at 1:26 PM, Aaron Powell wrote:

Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile, 
Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and 
underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might 
perform as such?



Aaron Powell
IE MVP | IE userAgent

http://www.aaron-powell.com<http://www.aaron-powell.com/> | 
http://twitter.com/slace | Skype: aaron.l.powell | 
Github<http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>



From: sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com> 
[mailto:sydjs@librelist.com] On Behalf Of Jared Wyles
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
To: sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com>
Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!



Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.

He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt 
at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles. 
Reduce your damn footprint and requests.

The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was 
rather, well, unnecessary.



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody 
<julioody@gmail.com<mailto:julioody@gmail.com>> wrote:

Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.



It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS 
*per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:



* measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way 
nothing *ever* spikes.

* delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.

* write really great and savvy markup.

* write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.



Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with 
almost no downsides.



The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the code.





On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland 
(rid00z@gmail.com<mailto:rid00z@gmail.com>) wrote:



IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet to publish.



....



For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the 
mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
share some experiences we've had with going mobile.

Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just html5
vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded in a
native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's 
actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.

Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we spent
the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft spot 
for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone, jquery 
and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The primary 
problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5 app just
didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted. Second 
issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build once and
optimize everywhere.

We ended up playing around with native applications, and found everything 
just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift in 
developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. From
that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's provides
a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich business 
application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some hard 
work.

That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user type
website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might go 
with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many 
users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in 
addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.

Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a 
users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40 
hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.

TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If 
your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your 
critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile 
friendly website is good to have.

FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native 
include us, Facebook and Xero.

Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to Facebooks 
claim please understand its a bit misleading because the comparison is 
done in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance would no have 
been half as good.





On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson 
<andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com<mailto:andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com>> wrote:

Yeah its called IE


Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 
861<tel:%2B61%20%280%29%20452%20411%20861> | http://adodson.com



On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray 
<nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com<mailto:nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com>>
wrote:

Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:

You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will catch you.





On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie 
<camwritescode@gmail.com<mailto:camwritescode@gmail.com>> wrote:

For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*





On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:



As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap







On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy 
<lachlan@lachstock.com.au<mailto:lachlan@lachstock.com.au>> wrote:

I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to point 
out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps and 
the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.



#justsayin





I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie 
<craig.sharkie@gmail.com<mailto:craig.sharkie@gmail.com>> wrote:



Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!



With the generous help of BlackBerry, we're looking to open our second 
SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of 
Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near 
Native experience of the BlackBerry and Firefox OS, the broad reach of 
Android, and the changing Apple iOS.



We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related, and
you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch 
event and have your say!



On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry 
Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry 
Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love 
JavaScript just as much as you!



RSVP now: 
http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au<http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au/>



See you there!



















Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
John Bristowe
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 06:12
From my cold, dead hands! ;)

- John

On 19/07/2013, at 16:08, "Aaron Powell" 
<me@aaron-powell.com<mailto:me@aaron-powell.com>> wrote:

I nominate John for the role of Comic Sans supporter

Aaron Powell
IE MVP | IE userAgent

http://www.aaron-powell.com<http://www.aaron-powell.com/> | 
http://twitter.com/slace | Skype: aaron.l.powell | 
Github<http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>

From: sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com> 
[mailto:sydjs@librelist.com] On Behalf Of John Bristowe
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 3:53 PM
To: sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com>
Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

By the way, I think this thread forms the basis for a good panel 
discussion for the first meeting:

"Native, Hybrid, Comic Sans, and the Battle for Mobile"

:-D

- John

On 19/07/2013, at 15:47, "John Bristowe" 
<John.Bristowe@telerik.com<mailto:John.Bristowe@telerik.com>> wrote:
I've noticed lag/jankyness in native apps too. Take Facebook, for example.

- John

On 19/07/2013, at 15:00, "Michael Ridland" 
<rid00z@gmail.com<mailto:rid00z@gmail.com>> wrote:

I had a look at untappd. It worked well for a phonegap app but you can 
still notice the lag in navigating to new screens or using the back 
button. That's why we had to dump phonegap for native.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:04 PM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:
https://untappd.com/ is a good example using phonegap.

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Guillaume Ang 
<guillaume.ang@gmail.com<mailto:guillaume.ang@gmail.com>> wrote:

Speaking of which, has any of you guys good examples of html5 embedded 
apps that rock ?
I would be eager to check those.
On Jul 19, 2013 1:48 PM, "Nathanael Mowbray" 
<nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com<mailto:nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com>>
wrote:

innerHTML on iOS is hopelessly slow.

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Ben Taylor 
<me@taybenlor.com<mailto:me@taybenlor.com>> wrote:
I think there's a jQuery plugin you can add for that.

On Friday, 19 July 2013 at 1:26 PM, Aaron Powell wrote:

Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile, 
Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and 
underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might 
perform as such?



Aaron Powell
IE MVP | IE userAgent

http://www.aaron-powell.com<http://www.aaron-powell.com/> | 
http://twitter.com/slace | Skype: aaron.l.powell | 
Github<http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>



From: sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com> 
[mailto:sydjs@librelist.com] On Behalf Of Jared Wyles
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
To: sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com>
Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!



Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.

He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt 
at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles. 
Reduce your damn footprint and requests.

The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was 
rather, well, unnecessary.



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody 
<julioody@gmail.com<mailto:julioody@gmail.com>> wrote:

Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.



It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS 
*per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:



* measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way 
nothing *ever* spikes.

* delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.

* write really great and savvy markup.

* write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.



Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with 
almost no downsides.



The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the code.





On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland 
(rid00z@gmail.com<mailto:rid00z@gmail.com>) wrote:



IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet to publish.



....



For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the 
mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
share some experiences we've had with going mobile.

Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just html5
vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded in a
native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's 
actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.

Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we spent
the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft spot 
for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone, jquery 
and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The primary 
problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5 app just
didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted. Second 
issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build once and
optimize everywhere.

We ended up playing around with native applications, and found everything 
just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift in 
developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. From
that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's provides
a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich business 
application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some hard 
work.

That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user type
website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might go 
with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many 
users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in 
addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.

Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a 
users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40 
hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.

TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If 
your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your 
critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile 
friendly website is good to have.

FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native 
include us, Facebook and Xero.

Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to Facebooks 
claim please understand its a bit misleading because the comparison is 
done in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance would no have 
been half as good.





On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson 
<andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com<mailto:andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com>> wrote:

Yeah its called IE


Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 
861<tel:%2B61%20%280%29%20452%20411%20861> | http://adodson.com



On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray 
<nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com<mailto:nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com>>
wrote:

Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:

You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will catch you.





On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie 
<camwritescode@gmail.com<mailto:camwritescode@gmail.com>> wrote:

For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*





On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:



As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap







On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy 
<lachlan@lachstock.com.au<mailto:lachlan@lachstock.com.au>> wrote:

I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to point 
out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps and 
the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.



#justsayin





I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie 
<craig.sharkie@gmail.com<mailto:craig.sharkie@gmail.com>> wrote:



Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!



With the generous help of BlackBerry, we're looking to open our second 
SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of 
Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near 
Native experience of the BlackBerry and Firefox OS, the broad reach of 
Android, and the changing Apple iOS.



We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related, and
you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch 
event and have your say!



On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry 
Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry 
Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love 
JavaScript just as much as you!



RSVP now: 
http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au<http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au/>



See you there!



















Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Aaron Powell
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 06:24
I'll change my font for DDD just for you John

Aaron Powell
IE MVP | IE userAgent

http://www.aaron-powell.com<http://www.aaron-powell.com/> | 
http://twitter.com/slace | Skype: aaron.l.powell | 
Github<http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>

From: sydjs@librelist.com [mailto:sydjs@librelist.com] On Behalf Of John Bristowe
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 4:13 PM
To: sydjs@librelist.com
Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From my cold, dead hands! ;)

- John

On 19/07/2013, at 16:08, "Aaron Powell" 
<me@aaron-powell.com<mailto:me@aaron-powell.com>> wrote:
I nominate John for the role of Comic Sans supporter

Aaron Powell
IE MVP | IE userAgent

http://www.aaron-powell.com<http://www.aaron-powell.com/> | 
http://twitter.com/slace | Skype: aaron.l.powell | 
Github<http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>

From: sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com> 
[mailto:sydjs@librelist.com] On Behalf Of John Bristowe
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 3:53 PM
To: sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com>
Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

By the way, I think this thread forms the basis for a good panel 
discussion for the first meeting:

"Native, Hybrid, Comic Sans, and the Battle for Mobile"

:-D

- John

On 19/07/2013, at 15:47, "John Bristowe" 
<John.Bristowe@telerik.com<mailto:John.Bristowe@telerik.com>> wrote:
I've noticed lag/jankyness in native apps too. Take Facebook, for example.

- John

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Chris Berkhout
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 06:28
In earlier days of the web people kept building web apps despite worse UI
performance than desktop apps, because there was more than that to consider
in the tradeoff.

I that was often the right choice, and I think much of the current <100%
native mobile stuff is too.

Cheers,
Chris

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Graham Lea
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 07:51
On 19/07/2013, at 3:46 PM, John Bristowe <John.Bristowe@telerik.com> wrote:

> I've noticed lag/jankyness in native apps too. Take Facebook, for example.
> 
> - John

I've read that large parts of the "New and Improved Native Facebook App" 
are just wrappers around the old webapp. Could explain your experience, or
they may just suck at writing native apps. 
--
Graham Lea
graham@grahamlea.com

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Jared Wyles
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 04:04
https://untappd.com/ is a good example using phonegap.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Guillaume Ang <guillaume.ang@gmail.com>wrote:

> Speaking of which, has any of you guys good examples of html5 embedded
> apps that rock ?
> I would be eager to check those.
> On Jul 19, 2013 1:48 PM, "Nathanael Mowbray" <
> nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> innerHTML on iOS is hopelessly slow.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Ben Taylor <me@taybenlor.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think there's a jQuery plugin you can add for that.
>>>
>>> On Friday, 19 July 2013 at 1:26 PM, Aaron Powell wrote:
>>>
>>>  Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile,
>>> Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and
>>> underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might
>>> perform as such?****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Aaron Powell
>>> IE MVP | IE userAgent
>>>
>>> http://www.aaron-powell.com | http://twitter.com/slace | Skype:
>>> aaron.l.powell | Github <http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | 
BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>
>>> ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> *From:* sydjs@librelist.com [mailto:sydjs@librelist.com<sydjs@librelist.com>]
>>> *On Behalf Of *Jared Wyles
>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
>>> *To:* sydjs@librelist.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.****
>>>
>>> He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt
>>> at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles.
>>> Reduce your damn footprint and requests. ****
>>>
>>> The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was
>>> rather, well, unnecessary. ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS
>>> *per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> * measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way
>>> nothing *ever* spikes.****
>>>
>>> * delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.****
>>>
>>> * write really great and savvy markup.****
>>>
>>> * write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with
>>> almost no downsides.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the
>>> code.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland (rid00z@gmail.com)
>>> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  ** **
>>>
>>> IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet
>>> to publish. ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ....****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the
>>> mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
>>> share some experiences we've had with going mobile.
>>>
>>> Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just
>>> html5 vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded
>>> in a native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's
>>> actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.
>>>
>>> Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we
>>> spent the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft
>>> spot for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone,
>>> jquery and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The
>>> primary problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5
>>> app just didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted.
>>> Second issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build
>>> once and optimize everywhere.
>>>
>>> We ended up playing around with native applications, and found
>>> everything just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift
>>> in developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different.
>>> From that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's
>>> provides a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich
>>> business application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some
>>> hard work.
>>>
>>> That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user
>>> type website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might
>>> go with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many
>>> users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in
>>> addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.
>>>
>>> Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a
>>> users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40
>>> hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
>>> was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.
>>>
>>> TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If
>>> your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your
>>> critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile
>>> friendly website is good to have.
>>>
>>> FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native
>>> include us, Facebook and Xero.
>>>
>>> Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to
>>> Facebooks claim please understand its a bit misleading because the
>>> comparison is done in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance
>>> would no have been half as good.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson <
>>> andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  Yeah its called IE****
>>>
>>>
>>> ****
>>>
>>> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
>>> http://adodson.com****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray <
>>> nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.**
>>> **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
>>> catch you.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <
>>> camwritescode@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:**
>>> **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ****
>>>
>>>  As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <
>>> lachlan@lachstock.com.au> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
>>> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
>>> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
>>> ****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> #justsayin****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  ** **
>>>
>>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our
>>> second SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world
>>> of Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
>>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad reach
>>> of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related,
>>> and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
>>> event and have your say!****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
>>> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
>>> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
>>> just as much as you!****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> See you there!****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>>   ** **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Michael Ridland
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 04:59
I had a look at untappd. It worked well for a phonegap app but you can
still notice the lag in navigating to new screens or using the back button.
That's why we had to dump phonegap for native.



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:04 PM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:

> https://untappd.com/ is a good example using phonegap.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Guillaume Ang <guillaume.ang@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Speaking of which, has any of you guys good examples of html5 embedded
>> apps that rock ?
>> I would be eager to check those.
>> On Jul 19, 2013 1:48 PM, "Nathanael Mowbray" <
>> nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> innerHTML on iOS is hopelessly slow.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Ben Taylor <me@taybenlor.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think there's a jQuery plugin you can add for that.
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, 19 July 2013 at 1:26 PM, Aaron Powell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full,
>>>> jQuery-mobile, Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto,
>>>> Handlebars and underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea
>>>> and it might perform as such?****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> Aaron Powell
>>>> IE MVP | IE userAgent
>>>>
>>>> http://www.aaron-powell.com | http://twitter.com/slace | Skype:
>>>> aaron.l.powell | Github <http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | 
BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> *From:* sydjs@librelist.com [mailto:sydjs@librelist.com<sydjs@librelist.com>]
>>>> *On Behalf Of *Jared Wyles
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
>>>> *To:* sydjs@librelist.com
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.****
>>>>
>>>> He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal
>>>> attempt at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on
>>>> mobiles. Reduce your damn footprint and requests. ****
>>>>
>>>> The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was
>>>> rather, well, unnecessary. ****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:****
>>>>
>>>>  Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS
>>>> *per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> * measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way
>>>> nothing *ever* spikes.****
>>>>
>>>> * delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.****
>>>>
>>>> * write really great and savvy markup.****
>>>>
>>>> * write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with
>>>> almost no downsides.****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the
>>>> code.****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland (rid00z@gmail.com)
>>>> wrote:****
>>>>
>>>>  ** **
>>>>
>>>> IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet
>>>> to publish. ****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ....****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the
>>>> mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
>>>> share some experiences we've had with going mobile.
>>>>
>>>> Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just
>>>> html5 vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded
>>>> in a native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's
>>>> actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.
>>>>
>>>> Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we
>>>> spent the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft
>>>> spot for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone,
>>>> jquery and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The
>>>> primary problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5
>>>> app just didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted.
>>>> Second issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build
>>>> once and optimize everywhere.
>>>>
>>>> We ended up playing around with native applications, and found
>>>> everything just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift
>>>> in developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different.
>>>> From that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's
>>>> provides a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich
>>>> business application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some
>>>> hard work.
>>>>
>>>> That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user
>>>> type website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might
>>>> go with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many
>>>> users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in
>>>> addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.
>>>>
>>>> Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of
>>>> a users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40
>>>> hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
>>>> was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.
>>>>
>>>> TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap.
>>>> If your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your
>>>> critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile
>>>> friendly website is good to have.
>>>>
>>>> FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native
>>>> include us, Facebook and Xero.
>>>>
>>>> Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to
>>>> Facebooks claim please understand its a bit misleading because the
>>>> comparison is done in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance
>>>> would no have been half as good.****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson <
>>>> andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>>
>>>>  Yeah its called IE****
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
>>>> http://adodson.com****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray <
>>>> nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>>
>>>>  Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.*
>>>> ***
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:****
>>>>
>>>>  You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
>>>> catch you.****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <
>>>> camwritescode@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>>
>>>>  For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:*
>>>> ***
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>>  As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap ****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <
>>>> lachlan@lachstock.com.au> wrote:****
>>>>
>>>>  I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
>>>> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
>>>> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> #justsayin****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:****
>>>>
>>>>  ** **
>>>>
>>>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our
>>>> second SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world
>>>> of Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
>>>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad
>>>> reach of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related,
>>>> and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
>>>> event and have your say!****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
>>>> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
>>>> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
>>>> just as much as you!****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> See you there!****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>>   ** **
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Guillaume Ang
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 05:36
Same feedback on Untappd, with a S3.

Financial Times is a WebApp, great job on that one, but still not 100% fluid

Any other candidate?

Guillaume Ang

+61 4 310 330 83
Skype : guillaume.ang

Add me on LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/guillaumeang>
& Add me to your address book <http://bit.ly/16tppm8>


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:59 PM, Michael Ridland <rid00z@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I had a look at untappd. It worked well for a phonegap app but you can
> still notice the lag in navigating to new screens or using the back button.
> That's why we had to dump phonegap for native.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:04 PM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> https://untappd.com/ is a good example using phonegap.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Guillaume Ang <guillaume.ang@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Speaking of which, has any of you guys good examples of html5 embedded
>>> apps that rock ?
>>> I would be eager to check those.
>>> On Jul 19, 2013 1:48 PM, "Nathanael Mowbray" <
>>> nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> innerHTML on iOS is hopelessly slow.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Ben Taylor <me@taybenlor.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think there's a jQuery plugin you can add for that.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Friday, 19 July 2013 at 1:26 PM, Aaron Powell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>  Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full,
>>>>> jQuery-mobile, Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto,
>>>>> Handlebars and underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea
>>>>> and it might perform as such?****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> Aaron Powell
>>>>> IE MVP | IE userAgent
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.aaron-powell.com | http://twitter.com/slace | Skype:
>>>>> aaron.l.powell | Github <http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | 
BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>
>>>>> ****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* sydjs@librelist.com 
[mailto:sydjs@librelist.com<sydjs@librelist.com>]
>>>>> *On Behalf Of *Jared Wyles
>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
>>>>> *To:* sydjs@librelist.com
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.****
>>>>>
>>>>> He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal
>>>>> attempt at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on
>>>>> mobiles. Reduce your damn footprint and requests. ****
>>>>>
>>>>> The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was
>>>>> rather, well, unnecessary. ****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:****
>>>>>
>>>>>  Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about
>>>>> CSS *per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> * measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way
>>>>> nothing *ever* spikes.****
>>>>>
>>>>> * delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.****
>>>>>
>>>>> * write really great and savvy markup.****
>>>>>
>>>>> * write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with
>>>>> almost no downsides.****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the
>>>>> code.****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland (rid00z@gmail.com)
>>>>> wrote:****
>>>>>
>>>>>  ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet
>>>>> to publish. ****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> ....****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the
>>>>> mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
>>>>> share some experiences we've had with going mobile.
>>>>>
>>>>> Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just
>>>>> html5 vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded
>>>>> in a native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's
>>>>> actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.
>>>>>
>>>>> Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we
>>>>> spent the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft
>>>>> spot for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone,
>>>>> jquery and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The
>>>>> primary problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5
>>>>> app just didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted.
>>>>> Second issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build
>>>>> once and optimize everywhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> We ended up playing around with native applications, and found
>>>>> everything just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift
>>>>> in developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different.
>>>>> From that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's
>>>>> provides a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich
>>>>> business application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some
>>>>> hard work.
>>>>>
>>>>> That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user
>>>>> type website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might
>>>>> go with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many
>>>>> users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in
>>>>> addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of
>>>>> a users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40
>>>>> hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
>>>>> was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.
>>>>>
>>>>> TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap.
>>>>> If your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your
>>>>> critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile
>>>>> friendly website is good to have.
>>>>>
>>>>> FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native
>>>>> include us, Facebook and Xero.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to
>>>>> Facebooks claim please understand its a bit misleading because the
>>>>> comparison is done in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance
>>>>> would no have been half as good.****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson <
>>>>> andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>>>
>>>>>  Yeah its called IE****
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ****
>>>>>
>>>>> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
>>>>> http://adodson.com****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray <
>>>>> nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>>>
>>>>>  Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.
>>>>> ****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:****
>>>>>
>>>>>  You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i
>>>>> will catch you.****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <
>>>>> camwritescode@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>>>
>>>>>  For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> ****
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ****
>>>>>
>>>>>  As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap ****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <
>>>>> lachlan@lachstock.com.au> wrote:****
>>>>>
>>>>>  I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
>>>>> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
>>>>> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
>>>>> ****
>>>>>
>>>>>  ****
>>>>>
>>>>> #justsayin****
>>>>>
>>>>>  ****
>>>>>
>>>>>  ****
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <
>>>>> craig.sharkie@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>>>
>>>>>  ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*****
>>>>>
>>>>>  ****
>>>>>
>>>>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our
>>>>> second SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world
>>>>> of Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
>>>>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad
>>>>> reach of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.****
>>>>>
>>>>>  ****
>>>>>
>>>>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related,
>>>>> and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
>>>>> event and have your say!****
>>>>>
>>>>>  ****
>>>>>
>>>>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
>>>>> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
>>>>> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
>>>>> just as much as you!****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> See you there!****
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>> ** **
>>>>>
>>>>>   ** **
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Jj Halans
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 04:37
http://forecast.io


> On 19 Jul 2013, at 14:02, Guillaume Ang <guillaume.ang@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Speaking of which, has any of you guys good examples of html5 embedded 
apps that rock ?
> I would be eager to check those.
> 
>> On Jul 19, 2013 1:48 PM, "Nathanael Mowbray" 
<nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> innerHTML on iOS is hopelessly slow.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Ben Taylor <me@taybenlor.com> wrote:
>>> I think there's a jQuery plugin you can add for that.
>>>> On Friday, 19 July 2013 at 1:26 PM, Aaron Powell wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, 
jQuery-mobile, Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, 
Handlebars and underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea 
and it might perform as such?
>>>>  
>>>> Aaron Powell
>>>> IE MVP | IE userAgent
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.aaron-powell.com | http://twitter.com/slace | Skype: 
aaron.l.powell | Github | BitBucket
>>>>  
>>>> From: sydjs@librelist.com [mailto:sydjs@librelist.com] On Behalf Of 
Jared Wyles
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
>>>> To: sydjs@librelist.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!
>>>>  
>>>> Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.
>>>> He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal 
attempt at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on 
mobiles. Reduce your damn footprint and requests. 
>>>> The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was
rather, well, unnecessary. 
>>>>  
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.
>>>>  
>>>> It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about 
CSS *per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:
>>>>  
>>>> * measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a 
way nothing *ever* spikes.
>>>> * delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.
>>>> 
>>>> * write really great and savvy markup.
>>>> * write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.
>>>>  
>>>> Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with 
almost no downsides.
>>>>  
>>>> The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the code.
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland (rid00z@gmail.com) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've 
yet to publish. 
>>>>  
>>>> ....
>>>>  
>>>> For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the 
mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
share some experiences we've had with going mobile.
>>>> 
>>>> Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just 
html5 vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's 
embedded in a native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In 
iOS there's actually a massive performance difference when using embedded 
html5.
>>>> 
>>>> Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we 
spent the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft 
spot for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone, 
jquery and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The 
primary problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5 
app just didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we 
wanted. Second issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is
build once and optimize everywhere.
>>>> 
>>>> We ended up playing around with native applications, and found 
everything just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift 
in developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. 
From that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's 
provides a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich 
business application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with 
some hard work.
>>>> 
>>>> That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user
type website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might
go with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many 
users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in 
addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.
>>>> 
>>>> Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part 
of a users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 
40 hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our 
choice was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.
>>>> 
>>>> TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap.
If your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your
critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile 
friendly website is good to have.
>>>> 
>>>> FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native 
include us, Facebook and Xero.
>>>> 
>>>> Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to 
Facebooks claim please understand its a bit misleading because the 
comparison is done in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance 
would no have been half as good.
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson 
<andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Yeah its called IE
>>>> 
>>>> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 | 
http://adodson.com
>>>>  
>>>> On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray 
<nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.
>>>>  
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
catch you.
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie 
<camwritescode@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap 
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy 
<lachlan@lachstock.com.au> wrote:
>>>> I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to 
point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps 
and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on 
tablets.
>>>>  
>>>> #justsayin
>>>>  
>>>>  
>>>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)
>>>>  
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie 
<craig.sharkie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>  
>>>> Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!
>>>>  
>>>> With the generous help of BlackBerry, we're looking to open our 
second SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving 
world of Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about 
the near Native experience of the BlackBerry and Firefox OS, the broad 
reach of Android, and the changing Apple iOS.
>>>>  
>>>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform 
related, and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to 
our launch event and have your say!
>>>>  
>>>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry 
Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry 
Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love 
JavaScript just as much as you!
>>>>  
>>>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au
>>>>  
>>>> See you there!

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Nathanael Mowbray
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 04:07
http://apps.ft.com/ for iPad.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Guillaume Ang <guillaume.ang@gmail.com>wrote:

> Speaking of which, has any of you guys good examples of html5 embedded
> apps that rock ?
> I would be eager to check those.
> On Jul 19, 2013 1:48 PM, "Nathanael Mowbray" <
> nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> innerHTML on iOS is hopelessly slow.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Ben Taylor <me@taybenlor.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I think there's a jQuery plugin you can add for that.
>>>
>>> On Friday, 19 July 2013 at 1:26 PM, Aaron Powell wrote:
>>>
>>>  Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile,
>>> Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and
>>> underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might
>>> perform as such?****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Aaron Powell
>>> IE MVP | IE userAgent
>>>
>>> http://www.aaron-powell.com | http://twitter.com/slace | Skype:
>>> aaron.l.powell | Github <http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | 
BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>
>>> ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> *From:* sydjs@librelist.com [mailto:sydjs@librelist.com<sydjs@librelist.com>]
>>> *On Behalf Of *Jared Wyles
>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
>>> *To:* sydjs@librelist.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.****
>>>
>>> He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt
>>> at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles.
>>> Reduce your damn footprint and requests. ****
>>>
>>> The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was
>>> rather, well, unnecessary. ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS
>>> *per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> * measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way
>>> nothing *ever* spikes.****
>>>
>>> * delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.****
>>>
>>> * write really great and savvy markup.****
>>>
>>> * write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with
>>> almost no downsides.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the
>>> code.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland (rid00z@gmail.com)
>>> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  ** **
>>>
>>> IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet
>>> to publish. ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ....****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the
>>> mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
>>> share some experiences we've had with going mobile.
>>>
>>> Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just
>>> html5 vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded
>>> in a native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's
>>> actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.
>>>
>>> Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we
>>> spent the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft
>>> spot for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone,
>>> jquery and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The
>>> primary problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5
>>> app just didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted.
>>> Second issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build
>>> once and optimize everywhere.
>>>
>>> We ended up playing around with native applications, and found
>>> everything just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift
>>> in developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different.
>>> From that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's
>>> provides a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich
>>> business application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some
>>> hard work.
>>>
>>> That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user
>>> type website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might
>>> go with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many
>>> users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in
>>> addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.
>>>
>>> Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a
>>> users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40
>>> hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
>>> was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.
>>>
>>> TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If
>>> your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your
>>> critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile
>>> friendly website is good to have.
>>>
>>> FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native
>>> include us, Facebook and Xero.
>>>
>>> Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to
>>> Facebooks claim please understand its a bit misleading because the
>>> comparison is done in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance
>>> would no have been half as good.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson <
>>> andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  Yeah its called IE****
>>>
>>>
>>> ****
>>>
>>> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
>>> http://adodson.com****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray <
>>> nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.**
>>> **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
>>> catch you.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <
>>> camwritescode@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:**
>>> **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ****
>>>
>>>  As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <
>>> lachlan@lachstock.com.au> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
>>> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
>>> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
>>> ****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> #justsayin****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  ** **
>>>
>>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our
>>> second SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world
>>> of Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
>>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad reach
>>> of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related,
>>> and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
>>> event and have your say!****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
>>> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
>>> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
>>> just as much as you!****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> See you there!****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>>   ** **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
John Bristowe
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 05:53
By the way, I think this thread forms the basis for a good panel 
discussion for the first meeting:

"Native, Hybrid, Comic Sans, and the Battle for Mobile"

:-D

- John

On 19/07/2013, at 15:47, "John Bristowe" 
<John.Bristowe@telerik.com<mailto:John.Bristowe@telerik.com>> wrote:

I've noticed lag/jankyness in native apps too. Take Facebook, for example.

- John

On 19/07/2013, at 15:00, "Michael Ridland" 
<rid00z@gmail.com<mailto:rid00z@gmail.com>> wrote:


I had a look at untappd. It worked well for a phonegap app but you can 
still notice the lag in navigating to new screens or using the back 
button. That's why we had to dump phonegap for native.



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:04 PM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:
https://untappd.com/ is a good example using phonegap.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Guillaume Ang 
<guillaume.ang@gmail.com<mailto:guillaume.ang@gmail.com>> wrote:

Speaking of which, has any of you guys good examples of html5 embedded 
apps that rock ?
I would be eager to check those.

On Jul 19, 2013 1:48 PM, "Nathanael Mowbray" 
<nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com<mailto:nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com>>
wrote:

innerHTML on iOS is hopelessly slow.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Ben Taylor 
<me@taybenlor.com<mailto:me@taybenlor.com>> wrote:
I think there's a jQuery plugin you can add for that.

On Friday, 19 July 2013 at 1:26 PM, Aaron Powell wrote:

Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile, 
Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and 
underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might 
perform as such?



Aaron Powell
IE MVP | IE userAgent

http://www.aaron-powell.com<http://www.aaron-powell.com/> | 
http://twitter.com/slace | Skype: aaron.l.powell | 
Github<http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>



From: sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com> 
[mailto:sydjs@librelist.com] On Behalf Of Jared Wyles
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
To: sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com>
Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!



Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.

He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt 
at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles. 
Reduce your damn footprint and requests.

The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was 
rather, well, unnecessary.



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody 
<julioody@gmail.com<mailto:julioody@gmail.com>> wrote:

Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.



It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS 
*per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:



* measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way 
nothing *ever* spikes.

* delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.

* write really great and savvy markup.

* write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.



Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with 
almost no downsides.



The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the code.





On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland 
(rid00z@gmail.com<mailto:rid00z@gmail.com>) wrote:



IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet to publish.



....



For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the 
mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
share some experiences we've had with going mobile.

Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just html5
vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded in a
native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's 
actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.

Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we spent
the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft spot 
for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone, jquery 
and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The primary 
problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5 app just
didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted. Second 
issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build once and
optimize everywhere.

We ended up playing around with native applications, and found everything 
just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift in 
developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. From
that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's provides
a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich business 
application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some hard 
work.

That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user type
website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might go 
with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many 
users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in 
addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.

Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a 
users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40 
hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.

TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If 
your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your 
critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile 
friendly website is good to have.

FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native 
include us, Facebook and Xero.

Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to Facebooks 
claim please understand its a bit misleading because the comparison is 
done in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance would no have 
been half as good.





On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson 
<andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com<mailto:andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com>> wrote:

Yeah its called IE


Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 
861<tel:%2B61%20%280%29%20452%20411%20861> | http://adodson.com



On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray 
<nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com<mailto:nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com>>
wrote:

Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:

You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will catch you.





On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie 
<camwritescode@gmail.com<mailto:camwritescode@gmail.com>> wrote:

For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*





On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:



As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap







On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy 
<lachlan@lachstock.com.au<mailto:lachlan@lachstock.com.au>> wrote:

I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to point 
out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps and 
the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.



#justsayin





I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie 
<craig.sharkie@gmail.com<mailto:craig.sharkie@gmail.com>> wrote:



Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!



With the generous help of BlackBerry, we're looking to open our second 
SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of 
Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near 
Native experience of the BlackBerry and Firefox OS, the broad reach of 
Android, and the changing Apple iOS.



We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related, and
you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch 
event and have your say!



On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry 
Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry 
Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love 
JavaScript just as much as you!



RSVP now: 
http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au<http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au/>



See you there!



















Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Aaron Powell
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 06:07
I nominate John for the role of Comic Sans supporter

Aaron Powell
IE MVP | IE userAgent

http://www.aaron-powell.com<http://www.aaron-powell.com/> | 
http://twitter.com/slace | Skype: aaron.l.powell | 
Github<http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>

From: sydjs@librelist.com [mailto:sydjs@librelist.com] On Behalf Of John Bristowe
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 3:53 PM
To: sydjs@librelist.com
Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

By the way, I think this thread forms the basis for a good panel 
discussion for the first meeting:

"Native, Hybrid, Comic Sans, and the Battle for Mobile"

:-D

- John

On 19/07/2013, at 15:47, "John Bristowe" 
<John.Bristowe@telerik.com<mailto:John.Bristowe@telerik.com>> wrote:
I've noticed lag/jankyness in native apps too. Take Facebook, for example.

- John

On 19/07/2013, at 15:00, "Michael Ridland" 
<rid00z@gmail.com<mailto:rid00z@gmail.com>> wrote:

I had a look at untappd. It worked well for a phonegap app but you can 
still notice the lag in navigating to new screens or using the back 
button. That's why we had to dump phonegap for native.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:04 PM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:
https://untappd.com/ is a good example using phonegap.

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Guillaume Ang 
<guillaume.ang@gmail.com<mailto:guillaume.ang@gmail.com>> wrote:

Speaking of which, has any of you guys good examples of html5 embedded 
apps that rock ?
I would be eager to check those.
On Jul 19, 2013 1:48 PM, "Nathanael Mowbray" 
<nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com<mailto:nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com>>
wrote:

innerHTML on iOS is hopelessly slow.

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 1:29 PM, Ben Taylor 
<me@taybenlor.com<mailto:me@taybenlor.com>> wrote:
I think there's a jQuery plugin you can add for that.

On Friday, 19 July 2013 at 1:26 PM, Aaron Powell wrote:

Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile, 
Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and 
underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might 
perform as such?



Aaron Powell
IE MVP | IE userAgent

http://www.aaron-powell.com<http://www.aaron-powell.com/> | 
http://twitter.com/slace | Skype: aaron.l.powell | 
Github<http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>



From: sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com> 
[mailto:sydjs@librelist.com] On Behalf Of Jared Wyles
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
To: sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com>
Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!



Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.

He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt 
at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles. 
Reduce your damn footprint and requests.

The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was 
rather, well, unnecessary.



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody 
<julioody@gmail.com<mailto:julioody@gmail.com>> wrote:

Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.



It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS 
*per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:



* measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way 
nothing *ever* spikes.

* delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.

* write really great and savvy markup.

* write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.



Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with 
almost no downsides.



The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the code.





On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland 
(rid00z@gmail.com<mailto:rid00z@gmail.com>) wrote:



IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet to publish.



....



For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the 
mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
share some experiences we've had with going mobile.

Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just html5
vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded in a
native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's 
actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.

Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we spent
the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft spot 
for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone, jquery 
and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The primary 
problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5 app just
didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted. Second 
issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build once and
optimize everywhere.

We ended up playing around with native applications, and found everything 
just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift in 
developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. From
that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's provides
a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich business 
application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some hard 
work.

That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user type
website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might go 
with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many 
users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in 
addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.

Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a 
users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40 
hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.

TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If 
your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your 
critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile 
friendly website is good to have.

FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native 
include us, Facebook and Xero.

Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to Facebooks 
claim please understand its a bit misleading because the comparison is 
done in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance would no have 
been half as good.





On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson 
<andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com<mailto:andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com>> wrote:

Yeah its called IE


Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 
861<tel:%2B61%20%280%29%20452%20411%20861> | http://adodson.com



On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray 
<nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com<mailto:nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com>>
wrote:

Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:

You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will catch you.





On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie 
<camwritescode@gmail.com<mailto:camwritescode@gmail.com>> wrote:

For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*





On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:



As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap







On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy 
<lachlan@lachstock.com.au<mailto:lachlan@lachstock.com.au>> wrote:

I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to point 
out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps and 
the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.



#justsayin





I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie 
<craig.sharkie@gmail.com<mailto:craig.sharkie@gmail.com>> wrote:



Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!



With the generous help of BlackBerry, we're looking to open our second 
SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of 
Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near 
Native experience of the BlackBerry and Firefox OS, the broad reach of 
Android, and the changing Apple iOS.



We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related, and
you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch 
event and have your say!



On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry 
Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry 
Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love 
JavaScript just as much as you!



RSVP now: 
http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au<http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au/>



See you there!



















Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Nikita Butenko
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 04:15
Just will leave it here:
http://sealedabstract.com/rants/why-mobile-web-apps-are-slow/

Personally I support Julio. In addition I think it depend on app really
much. Some of those could be easily implemented in html+css without any
performance issues (with minimum JS libs and using really smart way of
coding), others - cannot. For example I would not write arcade/action game
in html for mobile, but something turn-based like tic-tac-toe - why not.



-- 
Sincerely yours, Nikita Butenko
Google Talk: nik@butenko.me
Skype: nikita.butenko
Mobile: +61 450 264 801


On 19 July 2013 14:08, Nikita Butenko <nik@butenko.me> wrote:

> Just will leave it here:
> http://sealedabstract.com/rants/why-mobile-web-apps-are-slow/
>
> Personally I support Julio. In addition I think it depend on app really
> much. Some of those could be easily implemented in html+css without any
> performance issues (with minimum JS libs and using really smart way of
> coding), others - cannot. For example I would not write arcade/action game
> in html for mobile, but something turn-based like tic-tac-toe - why not.
>
>
>
> --
> Sincerely yours, Nikita Butenko
> Google Talk: nik@butenko.me
> Skype: nikita.butenko
> Mobile: +61 450 264 801
>
>
> On 19 July 2013 13:29, Ben Taylor <me@taybenlor.com> wrote:
>
>> I think there's a jQuery plugin you can add for that.
>>
>> On Friday, 19 July 2013 at 1:26 PM, Aaron Powell wrote:
>>
>>  Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile,
>> Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and
>> underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might
>> perform as such?****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Aaron Powell
>> IE MVP | IE userAgent
>>
>> http://www.aaron-powell.com | http://twitter.com/slace | Skype:
>> aaron.l.powell | Github <http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | 
BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>
>> ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* sydjs@librelist.com [mailto:sydjs@librelist.com<sydjs@librelist.com>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Jared Wyles
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
>> *To:* sydjs@librelist.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.****
>>
>> He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt
>> at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles.
>> Reduce your damn footprint and requests. ****
>>
>> The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was
>> rather, well, unnecessary. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>  Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS
>> *per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> * measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way
>> nothing *ever* spikes.****
>>
>> * delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.****
>>
>> * write really great and savvy markup.****
>>
>> * write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with
>> almost no downsides.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the
>> code.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland (rid00z@gmail.com) wrote:
>> ****
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>> IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet to
>> publish. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ....****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the
>> mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
>> share some experiences we've had with going mobile.
>>
>> Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just
>> html5 vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded
>> in a native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's
>> actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.
>>
>> Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we
>> spent the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft
>> spot for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone,
>> jquery and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The
>> primary problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5
>> app just didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted.
>> Second issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build
>> once and optimize everywhere.
>>
>> We ended up playing around with native applications, and found everything
>> just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift in
>> developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. From
>> that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's provides
>> a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich business
>> application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some hard
>> work.
>>
>> That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user
>> type website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might
>> go with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many
>> users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in
>> addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.
>>
>> Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a
>> users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40
>> hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
>> was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.
>>
>> TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If
>> your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your
>> critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile
>> friendly website is good to have.
>>
>> FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native
>> include us, Facebook and Xero.
>>
>> Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to Facebooks
>> claim please understand its a bit misleading because the comparison is done
>> in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance would no have been
>> half as good.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson <
>> andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>
>>  Yeah its called IE****
>>
>>
>> ****
>>
>> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
>> http://adodson.com****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray <
>> nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>
>>  Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.***
>> *
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>  You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
>> catch you.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <camwritescode@gmail.com>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>  For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:***
>> *
>>
>>
>>
>> ****
>>
>>  As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <lachlan@lachstock.com.au>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>  I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
>> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
>> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
>> ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> #justsayin****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our second
>> SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of
>> Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad reach
>> of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related,
>> and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
>> event and have your say!****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
>> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
>> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
>> just as much as you!****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> See you there!****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>>   ** **
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Nikolay Nemshilov
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 04:49
The article is quite a bullshit actually. It's all like "lets extrapolate 
1ms vs 5ms, to 10s vs 50s" and scary the kids.

All those pictures are pointless coz no one in their right mind will make 
something respond to the user in 10 seconds. All heavy tasks should run in
async, then it won't matter. Picking compiled language for running UI 
faster is lunacy.

The only considerable disadvantage of WEB vs Native atmo is that CSS 
effects are still quite jerky comparing to native animations.


--
Thanks,
Nikolay

On Jul 19, 2013, at 2:15 PM, Nikita Butenko <nik@butenko.me> wrote:

> Just will leave it here: 
http://sealedabstract.com/rants/why-mobile-web-apps-are-slow/
> 
> Personally I support Julio. In addition I think it depend on app really 
much. Some of those could be easily implemented in html+css without any 
performance issues (with minimum JS libs and using really smart way of 
coding), others - cannot. For example I would not write arcade/action game
in html for mobile, but something turn-based like tic-tac-toe - why not.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sincerely yours, Nikita Butenko
> Google Talk: nik@butenko.me
> Skype: nikita.butenko
> Mobile: +61 450 264 801
> 
> 
> On 19 July 2013 14:08, Nikita Butenko <nik@butenko.me> wrote:
> Just will leave it here: 
http://sealedabstract.com/rants/why-mobile-web-apps-are-slow/
> 
> Personally I support Julio. In addition I think it depend on app really 
much. Some of those could be easily implemented in html+css without any 
performance issues (with minimum JS libs and using really smart way of 
coding), others - cannot. For example I would not write arcade/action game
in html for mobile, but something turn-based like tic-tac-toe - why not.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sincerely yours, Nikita Butenko
> Google Talk: nik@butenko.me
> Skype: nikita.butenko
> Mobile: +61 450 264 801
> 
> 
> On 19 July 2013 13:29, Ben Taylor <me@taybenlor.com> wrote:
> I think there's a jQuery plugin you can add for that.
> On Friday, 19 July 2013 at 1:26 PM, Aaron Powell wrote:
> 
>> Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile, 
Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and 
underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might 
perform as such?
>>  
>> Aaron Powell
>> IE MVP | IE userAgent
>> 
>> http://www.aaron-powell.com | http://twitter.com/slace | Skype: 
aaron.l.powell | Github | BitBucket
>>  
>> From: sydjs@librelist.com [mailto:sydjs@librelist.com] On Behalf Of Jared Wyles
>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
>> To: sydjs@librelist.com
>> Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!
>>  
>> Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.
>> He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal 
attempt at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on 
mobiles. Reduce your damn footprint and requests. 
>> The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was 
rather, well, unnecessary. 
>>  
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.
>>  
>> It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS
*per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:
>>  
>> * measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way 
nothing *ever* spikes.
>> * delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.
>> 
>> * write really great and savvy markup.
>> * write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.
>>  
>> Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with 
almost no downsides.
>>  
>> The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the code.
>>  
>>  
>> On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland (rid00z@gmail.com) wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet 
to publish. 
>>  
>> ....
>>  
>> For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the 
mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
share some experiences we've had with going mobile.
>> 
>> Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just 
html5 vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's 
embedded in a native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In 
iOS there's actually a massive performance difference when using embedded 
html5.
>> 
>> Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we 
spent the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft 
spot for JavaScript and html. The architecture  was done using backbone, 
jquery and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The 
primary problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5 
app just didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we 
wanted. Second issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is
build once and optimize everywhere.
>> 
>> We ended up playing around with native applications, and found 
everything just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift 
in developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. 
From that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's 
provides a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich 
business application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with 
some hard work.
>> 
>> That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user 
type website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might
go with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many 
users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in 
addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.
>> 
>> Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of 
a users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40 
hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.
>> 
>> TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. 
If your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your
critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile 
friendly website is good to have.
>> 
>> FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native 
include us, Facebook and Xero.
>> 
>> Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to 
Facebooks claim please understand its a bit misleading because the 
comparison is done in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance 
would no have been half as good.
>>  
>>  
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson 
<andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yeah its called IE
>> 
>> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 | 
http://adodson.com
>>  
>> On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray 
<nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.
>>  
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will 
catch you.
>>  
>>  
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie 
<camwritescode@gmail.com> wrote:
>> For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*
>>  
>>  
>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap 
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy 
<lachlan@lachstock.com.au> wrote:
>> I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to 
point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps 
and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on 
tablets.
>>  
>> #justsayin
>>  
>>  
>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)
>>  
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>  
>> Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!
>>  
>> With the generous help of BlackBerry, we're looking to open our second 
SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of 
Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near 
Native experience of the BlackBerry and Firefox OS, the broad reach of 
Android, and the changing Apple iOS.
>>  
>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related, 
and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our 
launch event and have your say!
>>  
>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry 
Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry 
Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love 
JavaScript just as much as you!
>>  
>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au
>>  
>> See you there!
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
> 
> 
> 

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Andrew Dodson
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 03:29
I think you forgot Kendo UI

Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
http://adodson.com


On 19 July 2013 13:26, Aaron Powell <me@aaron-powell.com> wrote:

>  Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile,
> Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and
> underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might
> perform as such?****
>
> ** **
>
> Aaron Powell
> IE MVP | IE userAgent
>
> http://www.aaron-powell.com | http://twitter.com/slace | Skype:
> aaron.l.powell | Github <http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | 
BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* sydjs@librelist.com [mailto:sydjs@librelist.com] *On Behalf Of *Jared
> Wyles
> *Sent:* Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
> *To:* sydjs@librelist.com
> *Subject:* Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!****
>
> ** **
>
> Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.****
>
> He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt
> at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles.
> Reduce your damn footprint and requests. ****
>
> The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was
> rather, well, unnecessary. ****
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com>
> wrote:****
>
>  Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.****
>
> ** **
>
> It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS
> *per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:****
>
> ** **
>
> * measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way
> nothing *ever* spikes.****
>
> * delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.****
>
> * write really great and savvy markup.****
>
> * write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.****
>
> ** **
>
> Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with
> almost no downsides.****
>
> ** **
>
> The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the code.
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland (rid00z@gmail.com) wrote:*
> ***
>
>  ** **
>
> IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet to
> publish. ****
>
> ** **
>
> ....****
>
> ** **
>
> For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the
> mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
> share some experiences we've had with going mobile.
>
> Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just html5
> vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded in a
> native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's
> actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.
>
> Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we spent
> the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft spot
> for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone, jquery
> and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The primary
> problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5 app just
> didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted. Second
> issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build once and
> optimize everywhere.
>
> We ended up playing around with native applications, and found everything
> just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift in
> developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. From
> that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's provides
> a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich business
> application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some hard
> work.
>
> That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user type
> website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might go
> with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many
> users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in
> addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.
>
> Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a
> users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40
> hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
> was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.
>
> TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If
> your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your
> critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile
> friendly website is good to have.
>
> FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native
> include us, Facebook and Xero.
>
> Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to Facebooks
> claim please understand its a bit misleading because the comparison is done
> in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance would no have been
> half as good.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson <andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com>
> wrote:****
>
>  Yeah its called IE****
>
>
> ****
>
> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
> http://adodson.com****
>
> ** **
>
> On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray <nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com>
> wrote:****
>
>  Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.****
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>
> wrote:****
>
>  You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
> catch you.****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <camwritescode@gmail.com>
> wrote:****
>
>  For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:****
>
>
>
> ****
>
>  As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap ****
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <lachlan@lachstock.com.au>
> wrote:****
>
>  I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
> ****
>
>  ****
>
> #justsayin****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)****
>
> ** **
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com>
> wrote:****
>
>  ** **
>
> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*****
>
>  ****
>
> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our second
> SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of
> Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad reach
> of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.****
>
>  ****
>
> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related, and
> you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
> event and have your say!****
>
>  ****
>
> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
> just as much as you!****
>
> ** **
>
> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au****
>
> ** **
>
> See you there!****
>
>  ** **
>
>  ** **
>
>  ** **
>
>  ** **
>
>  ** **
>
>  ** **
>
>  ** **
>
>    ** **
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Julio Cesar Ody
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 03:02
could not decode message

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Andrew Dodson
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 03:12
@Jared saying that, to make minor tweaks some "native" apps pull in assets
remotely anyway, gets around the whole Shit Stores approvals. And as i
said, Application Cache is there for web apps.

Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
http://adodson.com


On 19 July 2013 13:02, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com> wrote:

> Amen bro. That goes for whatever stack you choose. Adding an item:
>
>
> * create a really smart sync strategy.
>
>
> This in many ways remind me of developing software for Busybox in C. Any
> small mistake is a big enough mistake. But do get in it. Nothing else is as
> good of a teacher than constraints.
>
>
> On 19 July 2013 at 1:02:01 PM, Jared Wyles (jared.wyles@gmail.com) wrote:
>
> Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.
> He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt
> at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles.
> Reduce your damn footprint and requests.
> The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was
> rather, well, unnecessary.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.
>>
>>
>> It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS
>> *per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:
>>
>>
>> * measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way
>> nothing *ever* spikes.
>>
>> * delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.
>>
>> * write really great and savvy markup.
>>
>> * write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.
>>
>>
>> Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with
>> almost no downsides.
>>
>>
>> The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the
>> code.
>>
>>
>> On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland (rid00z@gmail.com) wrote:
>>
>>
>> IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet to
>> publish.
>>
>> ....
>>
>> For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the
>> mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
>> share some experiences we've had with going mobile.
>>
>> Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just
>> html5 vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded
>> in a native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's
>> actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.
>>
>> Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we
>> spent the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft
>> spot for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone,
>> jquery and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The
>> primary problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5
>> app just didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted.
>> Second issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build
>> once and optimize everywhere.
>>
>> We ended up playing around with native applications, and found everything
>> just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift in
>> developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. From
>> that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's provides
>> a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich business
>> application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some hard
>> work.
>>
>> That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user
>> type website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might
>> go with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many
>> users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in
>> addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.
>>
>> Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a
>> users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40
>> hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
>> was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.
>>
>> TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If
>> your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your
>> critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile
>> friendly website is good to have.
>>
>> FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native
>> include us, Facebook and Xero.
>>
>> Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to
>> Facebooks claim please understand its a bit misleading because the
>> comparison is done in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance
>> would no have been half as good.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson <
>> andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah its called IE
>>>
>>> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
>>> http://adodson.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray <
>>> nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
>>>>> catch you.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <
>>>>> camwritescode@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <
>>>>>> lachlan@lachstock.com.au> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
>>>>>>> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
>>>>>>> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on
tablets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> #justsayin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <
>>>>>>> craig.sharkie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our
>>>>>>>> second SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast 
moving world
>>>>>>>> of Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn 
about the near
>>>>>>>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad
>>>>>>>> reach of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform
>>>>>>>> related, and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to
>>>>>>>> our launch event and have your say!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local
>>>>>>>> Blackberry Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from
>>>>>>>> BlackBerry Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet 
folks who love
>>>>>>>> JavaScript just as much as you!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> See you there!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Sasha Gerrand
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 01:55
Won't somebody think of the sponsors?

Blackberry BlackBerry Blackberry

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
John Bristowe
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 04:16
We just dropped our vLatest bits yesterday: http://www.kendoui.com/

Also, there's Icenium: http://www.icenium.com/

Please ping me if you have questions. :)

- John

From: Andrew Dodson <andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com<mailto:andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com>>
Reply-To: "sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com>" 
<sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com>>
Date: Friday, 19 July 2013 11:29 AM
To: "sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com>" 
<sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com>>
Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

I think you forgot Kendo UI

Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 | http://adodson.com


On 19 July 2013 13:26, Aaron Powell 
<me@aaron-powell.com<mailto:me@aaron-powell.com>> wrote:
Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile, 
Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and 
underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might 
perform as such?

Aaron Powell
IE MVP | IE userAgent

http://www.aaron-powell.com<http://www.aaron-powell.com/> | 
http://twitter.com/slace | Skype: aaron.l.powell | 
Github<http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>

From:sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com> 
[mailto:sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com>] On Behalf Of 
Jared Wyles
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
To: sydjs@librelist.com<mailto:sydjs@librelist.com>
Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.
He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt 
at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles. 
Reduce your damn footprint and requests.
The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was 
rather, well, unnecessary.

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody 
<julioody@gmail.com<mailto:julioody@gmail.com>> wrote:

Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.



It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS 
*per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:



* measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way 
nothing *ever* spikes.

* delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.

* write really great and savvy markup.

* write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.



Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with 
almost no downsides.



The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the code.



On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland 
(rid00z@gmail.com<mailto:rid00z@gmail.com>) wrote:

IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet to publish.

....

For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the 
mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
share some experiences we've had with going mobile.

Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just html5
vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded in a
native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's 
actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.

Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we spent
the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft spot 
for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone, jquery 
and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The primary 
problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5 app just
didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted. Second 
issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build once and
optimize everywhere.

We ended up playing around with native applications, and found everything 
just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift in 
developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. From
that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's provides
a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich business 
application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some hard 
work.

That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user type
website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might go 
with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many 
users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in 
addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.

Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a 
users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40 
hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.

TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If 
your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your 
critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile 
friendly website is good to have.

FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native 
include us, Facebook and Xero.

Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to Facebooks 
claim please understand its a bit misleading because the comparison is 
done in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance would no have 
been half as good.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson 
<andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com<mailto:andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com>> wrote:
Yeah its called IE

Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 
861<tel:%2B61%20%280%29%20452%20411%20861> | http://adodson.com

On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray 
<nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com<mailto:nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com>>
wrote:
Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:
You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will catch you.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie 
<camwritescode@gmail.com<mailto:camwritescode@gmail.com>> wrote:
For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*


On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles 
<jared.wyles@gmail.com<mailto:jared.wyles@gmail.com>> wrote:


As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap



On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy 
<lachlan@lachstock.com.au<mailto:lachlan@lachstock.com.au>> wrote:
I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to point 
out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps and 
the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.

#justsayin


I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)

On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie 
<craig.sharkie@gmail.com<mailto:craig.sharkie@gmail.com>> wrote:

Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!


With the generous help of BlackBerry, we're looking to open our second 
SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of 
Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near 
Native experience of the BlackBerry and Firefox OS, the broad reach of 
Android, and the changing Apple iOS.


We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related, and
you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch 
event and have your say!


On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry 
Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry 
Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love 
JavaScript just as much as you!

RSVP now: 
http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au<http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au/>

See you there!








Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Lachlan Hardy
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 04:25
I was about to link the same article as Nikita. It's solid.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:16 PM, John Bristowe <John.Bristowe@telerik.com>wrote:

>  We just dropped our vLatest bits yesterday: http://www.kendoui.com/
>
>  Also, there's Icenium: http://www.icenium.com/
>
>  Please ping me if you have questions. :)
>
>  - John
>
>   From: Andrew Dodson <andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com>
> Reply-To: "sydjs@librelist.com" <sydjs@librelist.com>
> Date: Friday, 19 July 2013 11:29 AM
> To: "sydjs@librelist.com" <sydjs@librelist.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!
>
>   I think you forgot Kendo UI
>
> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
> http://adodson.com
>
>
> On 19 July 2013 13:26, Aaron Powell <me@aaron-powell.com> wrote:
>
>>  Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile,
>> Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and
>> underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might
>> perform as such?****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Aaron Powell
>> IE MVP | IE userAgent
>>
>> http://www.aaron-powell.com | http://twitter.com/slace | Skype:
>> aaron.l.powell | Github <http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | 
BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>
>> ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:*sydjs@librelist.com [mailto:sydjs@librelist.com] *On Behalf Of *Jared
>> Wyles
>> *Sent:* Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
>> *To:* sydjs@librelist.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.****
>>
>> He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt
>> at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles.
>> Reduce your damn footprint and requests. ****
>>
>> The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was
>> rather, well, unnecessary. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>  Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS
>> *per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> * measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way
>> nothing *ever* spikes.****
>>
>> * delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.****
>>
>> * write really great and savvy markup.****
>>
>> * write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with
>> almost no downsides.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the
>> code.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland (rid00z@gmail.com) wrote:
>> ****
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>> IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet to
>> publish. ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ....****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the
>> mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
>> share some experiences we've had with going mobile.
>>
>> Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just
>> html5 vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded
>> in a native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's
>> actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.
>>
>> Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we
>> spent the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft
>> spot for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone,
>> jquery and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The
>> primary problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5
>> app just didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted.
>> Second issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build
>> once and optimize everywhere.
>>
>> We ended up playing around with native applications, and found everything
>> just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift in
>> developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different. From
>> that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's provides
>> a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich business
>> application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some hard
>> work.
>>
>> That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user
>> type website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might
>> go with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many
>> users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in
>> addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.
>>
>> Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a
>> users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40
>> hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
>> was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.
>>
>> TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If
>> your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your
>> critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile
>> friendly website is good to have.
>>
>> FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native
>> include us, Facebook and Xero.
>>
>> Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to Facebooks
>> claim please understand its a bit misleading because the comparison is done
>> in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance would no have been
>> half as good.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson <
>> andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>
>>  Yeah its called IE****
>>
>>
>> ****
>>
>> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
>> http://adodson.com****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray <
>> nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>
>>  Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.***
>> *
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>  You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
>> catch you.****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <camwritescode@gmail.com>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>  For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:***
>> *
>>
>>
>>
>> ****
>>
>>  As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap ****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <lachlan@lachstock.com.au>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>  I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
>> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
>> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
>> ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> #justsayin****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com>
>> wrote:****
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our second
>> SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world of
>> Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad reach
>> of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related,
>> and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
>> event and have your say!****
>>
>>  ****
>>
>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
>> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
>> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
>> just as much as you!****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> See you there!****
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>>  ** **
>>
>>    ** **
>>
>
>

Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!

From:
Lachlan Hardy
Date:
2013-07-19 @ 04:27
Also, I really really hate when technical conversations turn towards the
"well, you just need to be better programmers", and this one is tending in
that direction a bit.

If we could keep it more in the vein of what anyone could do to improve
their mobile apps, I'd appreciate it.


On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:25 PM, Lachlan Hardy <lachlan@lachstock.com.au>wrote:

> I was about to link the same article as Nikita. It's solid.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 2:16 PM, John Bristowe <John.Bristowe@telerik.com>wrote:
>
>>  We just dropped our vLatest bits yesterday: http://www.kendoui.com/
>>
>>  Also, there's Icenium: http://www.icenium.com/
>>
>>  Please ping me if you have questions. :)
>>
>>  - John
>>
>>   From: Andrew Dodson <andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com>
>> Reply-To: "sydjs@librelist.com" <sydjs@librelist.com>
>> Date: Friday, 19 July 2013 11:29 AM
>> To: "sydjs@librelist.com" <sydjs@librelist.com>
>>
>> Subject: Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!
>>
>>   I think you forgot Kendo UI
>>
>> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
>> http://adodson.com
>>
>>
>> On 19 July 2013 13:26, Aaron Powell <me@aaron-powell.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  Wait, are you saying that adding jQuery, jQueryUI-full, jQuery-mobile,
>>> Twitter Bootstrap-full, Modernizr, Backbone, Zepto, Handlebars and
>>> underscore to my single page mobile app will be a bad idea and it might
>>> perform as such?****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Aaron Powell
>>> IE MVP | IE userAgent
>>>
>>> http://www.aaron-powell.com | http://twitter.com/slace | Skype:
>>> aaron.l.powell | Github <http://github.com/aaronpowell/> | 
BitBucket<http://hg.apwll.me/>
>>> ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> *From:*sydjs@librelist.com [mailto:sydjs@librelist.com] *On Behalf Of *Jared
>>> Wyles
>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 19, 2013 12:56 PM
>>> *To:* sydjs@librelist.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [sydjs] Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Julio is correct. Some thought and you can go a long way.****
>>>
>>> He did miss one important thing, one thing that facebooks dismal attempt
>>> at a web app missed. Network access is not free, especially on mobiles.
>>> Reduce your damn footprint and requests. ****
>>>
>>> The amount of requests that facebook made to just reach dom ready was
>>> rather, well, unnecessary. ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <julioody@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  Oh look, a technical discussion. I'll pitch in.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> It's not about the JS, not about the HTML, and definitely not about CSS
>>> *per se*. You can code a fast mobile web app if you:****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> * measure memory usage correctly, detect and distribute tasks in a way
>>> nothing *ever* spikes.****
>>>
>>> * delegate the right stuff, and judiciously do so, to the GPU.****
>>>
>>> * write really great and savvy markup.****
>>>
>>> * write REALLY great and savvy stylesheets.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Then yeah, it'll all work fine and you'll reap all the benefits with
>>> almost no downsides.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> The real question is how big those ifs are for whoever is writing the
>>> code.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On 19 July 2013 at 12:52:36 PM, Michael Ridland (rid00z@gmail.com)
>>> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  ** **
>>>
>>> IMHO I know the 'correct answer' so I've included a blog post I've yet
>>> to publish. ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ....****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> For the past few years I've been in charge of the development of the
>>> mobile version of the Jim2 Business Engine at Happen Business. I wanted to
>>> share some experiences we've had with going mobile.
>>>
>>> Before we move on I think it's important to understand it's not just
>>> html5 vs native as there's two types of html5 there's html5 that's embedded
>>> in a native app and there's html5 that's used via a browser. In iOS there's
>>> actually a massive performance difference when using embedded html5.
>>>
>>> Believing in the power of html5 and the promise of cross platform we
>>> spent the first nine months developing in html5, personally I have a soft
>>> spot for JavaScript and html. The architecture was done using backbone,
>>> jquery and moutashe. We ended up with a working app that ran ok. The
>>> primary problem we ran into was even after intense optimisation the html5
>>> app just didn't run fast enough for the level of user experience we wanted.
>>> Second issue was the time spent in optimisation, truth is html5 is build
>>> once and optimize everywhere.
>>>
>>> We ended up playing around with native applications, and found
>>> everything just worked and worked well. There's quiet a hard mental shift
>>> in developing native vs html as the way you create UI is very different.
>>> From that point on we been having a blast and we've come up app that's
>>> provides a amazing user experience. It's very challenging to put a rich
>>> business application onto a small touch screen but it can be done with some
>>> hard work.
>>>
>>> That said there's defiantly some places for html5, if your a end user
>>> type website a mobile friendly website is essential. Even though you might
>>> go with a native app for user experience you must also consider that many
>>> users like to be in their browser, so having a mobile friendly website(in
>>> addition to native) is also important for user experience in this case.
>>>
>>> Something else you need to consider, 'is your app an essential part of a
>>> users day'? Then a native app is essential. As our users spend about 40
>>> hours a week working we are essential part of the users like so our choice
>>> was an app, and a mobile friend webapp is on the roadmap.
>>>
>>> TLDR: avoid embedded html5 because of performance issues eg phonegap. If
>>> your a website have a mobile friendly version and maybe an app. If your
>>> critical function of a users life then a app is a must and a mobile
>>> friendly website is good to have.
>>>
>>> FYI many companies that once went html5 have now gone back to native
>>> include us, Facebook and Xero.
>>>
>>> Ps, if you take a look at Senchas response('html5 is ready') to
>>> Facebooks claim please understand its a bit misleading because the
>>> comparison is done in a safari browser and if it was embedded performance
>>> would no have been half as good.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:59 AM, Andrew Dodson <
>>> andrew.j.dodson@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  Yeah its called IE****
>>>
>>>
>>> ****
>>>
>>> Andrew Dodson | Freelance Web Developer | +61 (0) 452 411 861 |
>>> http://adodson.com****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On 19 July 2013 11:57, Nathanael Mowbray <
>>> nate.nathanael.mowbray@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  Windows Phone 8 does provide quite a lovely WebishContainerViewThing.**
>>> **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  You can run, but eventually you will pass a bar. That is where i will
>>> catch you.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:51 AM, Cameron Barrie <
>>> camwritescode@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  For nowhere near native performance Jared? *runs*****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On 19/07/2013, at 11:42 AM, Jared Wyles <jared.wyles@gmail.com> wrote:**
>>> **
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ****
>>>
>>>  As an adobe employee... oh fuck it. Just use phonegap ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Lachlan Hardy <
>>> lachlan@lachstock.com.au> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  I feel it's my duty as a Microsoft employee and JavaScript lover to
>>> point out the "near native" experience of Windows Phone 8 JavaScript apps
>>> and the actually native experience of Windows 8 JavaScript apps on tablets.
>>> ****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> #justsayin****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> I'm sure Craig meant to mention those at some point :)****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:59 AM, Craig Sharkie <craig.sharkie@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:****
>>>
>>>  ** **
>>>
>>> *Be part of the SydJS family as we grow!*****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> With the generous help of *BlackBerry*, we're looking to open our
>>> second SydJS meeting per month - this one focussed on the fast moving world
>>> of Mobile Application development. Along the way we'll learn about the near
>>> Native experience of the *BlackBerry* and *Firefox OS*, the broad reach
>>> of *Android*, and the changing *Apple iOS*.****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> We'll be focussed on JavaScript, but expect anything platform related,
>>> and you'll be helping drive the community forward. Come along to our launch
>>> event and have your say!****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> On the night we'll hear from Mic Fishpool, from the local Blackberry
>>> Developer community, as well as Christopher Saunders from BlackBerry
>>> Australia, and there'll be a great chance to meet folks who love JavaScript
>>> just as much as you!****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> RSVP now: http://sydjsmobile.eventbrite.com.au****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> See you there!****
>>>
>>>  ** **
>>>
>>>  ** **
>>>
>>>  ** **
>>>
>>>  ** **
>>>
>>>  ** **
>>>
>>>  ** **
>>>
>>>  ** **
>>>
>>>    ** **
>>>
>>
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